The 3 Carcanos

[Tony Krome]

Baker's affidavit has a man "walking away from the stairway" on the 3rd or 4th floor. Baker called out and the man walked back towards the stairway. No lunchroom, in fact no room at all.

Remarkably, Baker's description of the man matches the ground level witness description of a suspect that Sawyer put out on the radio at approx 12:43. (most likely Brennan)

What are the chances of that?

We have Truly leading Baker up the stairway, so who would be closer to a man walking away? The answer is Truly. But Truly does not mention he initially saw this man, he continues on, then returned when he heard Baker.

Sounds like a puzzle right? Not really. If the man walking away from the stairway was known to Truly as a TSBD employee, why stop? Keep leading the cop to the rooftop where a crazed gunman maybe firing pot shots.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Tony Krome

[James DiEugenio]

From The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today

 

"For me, what certifies that Baker is being honest here is that when he went down to the police station to write his affidavit, Oswald was in the same room with him. Which Baker described as a small room, so small that he had to almost fall over Oswadl to get out.  In other words, he was in the same room with Oswald and he still did not name him in either version of his affidavit.  According to the Commission, he had just stuck a gun in this guy's stomach. (WC Vol 3, pp. 257-58)

 

Toward the end of the evening, the DPD began to realize that Baker's first day affidavit could prevent the noose they were preparing from settling around Oswald' neck.  SO when Det. Marvin Johnson made out an undated report either that evening or the next day, he transmitted Baker's first day information accurately--except for one thing not in the affidavit.  He wrote, "Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor". At the very end of this report, and completely out of chronological order, Johnson adds that Baker identified Oswald at the station in the small room.  Yet, Baker told the Commission that he was making out the affidavit at the time in the room.  And Oswald's name is not in it."  (DIEugenio, p. 218)

Clearly what happened over time is that the guy on the 4th floor disappeared and the identification of Oswald that did not take place that day, now was penciled in. Further, that guy on the 4th floor did not fit the description of Oswald. He was older, heavier and wearing a brown jacket. This kind of thing has led some people, like Bart Kamp, to argue that the second floor encounter did not happen.  I tend to think he has a good argument.

Edited June 25, 2021 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

24 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

From The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today

 

"For me, what certifies that Baker is being honest here is that when he went down to the police station to write his affidavit, Oswald was in the same room with him. Which Baker described as a small room, so small that he had to almost fall over Oswadl to get out.  In other words, he was in the same room with Oswald and he still did not name him in either version of his affidavit.  According to the Commission, he had just stuck a gun in this guy's stomach. (WC Vol 3, pp. 257-58)

 

Toward the end of the evening, the DPD began to realize that Baker's first day affidavit could prevent the noose they were preparing from settling around Oswald' neck.  SO when Det. Marvin Johnson made out an undated report either that evening or the next day, he transmitted Baker's first day information accurately--except for one thing not in the affidavit.  He wrote, "Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor". At the very end of this report, and completely out of chronological order, Johnson adds that Baker identified Oswald at the station in the small room.  Yet, Baker told the Commission that he was making out the affidavit at the time in the room.  And Oswald's name is not in it."  (DIEugenio, p. 218)

Clearly what happened over time is that the guy on the 4th floor disappeared and the identification of Oswald that did not take place that day, now was penciled in. Further, that guy on the 4th floor did not fit the description of Oswald. He was older, heavier and wearing a brown jacket. This kind of thing has led some people, like Bart Kamp, to argue that the second floor encounter did not happen.  I tend to think he has a good argument.

So Baker did Not identify Oswald in his first day report on either the 2nd or 4th floor Or in the small room at the DPD.  Detective Johnson Later wrote Baker Later ID'd Oswald as seen on the Fourth Floor, Not the Second.  Johnson adds that Baker identified Oswald at the station in the small room.  Not Baker but Jonson for him, later Adds this.

Bart and Company are right.  No Oswald on the second floor.  Another "Employee" on the fourth floor.  LHO out front with Shelly.  jmo, fwiw.

[Tony Krome]

So we see that Baker clearly conformed to the official story by the time he testified. His 4th floor stairway man became the 2nd floor lunchroom Oswald. Truly was the first to buckle. He had Oswald in the lunchroom by Saturday.

Which leaves us with the identity of the 4th floor stairway man. We are looking for a dark haired white male approx 5'9" 165 pounds that works in the TSBD.

I believe I know who that guy is. I'll wait to see if anyone else names him.

[John Butler]

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Toward the end of the evening, the DPD began to realize that Baker's first day affidavit could prevent the noose they were preparing from settling around Oswald' neck.  SO when Det. Marvin Johnson made out an undated report either that evening or the next day, he transmitted Baker's first day information accurately--except for one thing not in the affidavit.  He wrote, "Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor". At the very end of this report, and completely out of chronological order, Johnson adds that Baker identified Oswald at the station in the small room.  Yet, Baker told the Commission that he was making out the affidavit at the time in the room.  And Oswald's name is not in it."  (DIEugenio, p. 218)

Ron,

Thanks a lot for putting this out there.  I didn't know someone had identified the man on the third or fourth floor.  Particularly as Oswald. 

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

For me, what certifies that Baker is being honest here is that when he went down to the police station to write his affidavit, Oswald was in the same room with him.

 And, he doesn't identify Oswald then.  But, later as you say.  This could mean Baker and Truly had some part in the JFKA and Truly was more complicit than Baker.  I have had thoughts that Harvey Oswald was not to make it out of Dealey Plaza.  Baker with a gun to the belly story might be an invention and if it wasn't then that strengthens the notion that Harvey was to die at the TSBD or on the bus or in the Texas Theater.

 

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Bart and Company are right.  No Oswald on the second floor.  Another "Employee" on the fourth floor.  LHO out front with Shelly.  jmo, fwiw.

This is always what I have thought.  I have some doubts on "Oswald" being the employee on the 3rd or 4th floor.  Then again it could very well be the original Lee Harvey Oswald. Two Oswalds escape the TSBD.  I have his doppleganger, Harvey, out on Elm Street taking photos of the p. limo and then becoming Prayer Man.  This is according to the John Martin film.

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

 I have his doppleganger, Harvey, out on Elm Street taking photos of the p. limo and then becoming Prayer Man.  This is according to the John Martin film.

This is not in any way what the John Martin film shows, but OK...

[Sean Coleman]

11 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

So we see that Baker clearly conformed to the official story by the time he testified. His 4th floor stairway man became the 2nd floor lunchroom Oswald. Truly was the first to buckle. He had Oswald in the lunchroom by Saturday.

Which leaves us with the identity of the 4th floor stairway man. We are looking for a dark haired white male approx 5'9" 165 pounds that works in the TSBD.

I believe I know who that guy is. I'll wait to see if anyone else names him.

Lord Lucan

[John Butler]

20 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This is not in any way what the John Martin film shows, but OK...

Some people think this scene may be where the first shot occurred.  It is equivalent to about Z 160 at the west corner of the TSBD.  I believe this person is Harvey Oswald and he is taking pictures with the camera he went home to get.  He told Frazier he had curtain rods in that paper bag.

The images here are about the same quality as we see Prayer Man in the doorway.  This person is taking a photo as the p. limo passes.  An important question is what happened to this camera and film? 

[Tony Krome]

The conversation on the rooftop is worth noting;

Mr. TRULY...... And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the building. I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building." 

If Truly did in fact say the above, he doesn't come across as someone that has intent to frame Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all? 
Mr. TRULY.... I believe he said, yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that.

Is Truly saying that Baker heard somebody say the shots came from the building before he ran up to the roof? Who got in Baker's ear?

Mr. TRULY..... I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "Be careful, this man will blow your head off."

How did Baker know that someone had been shot before he ran up to the roof?

[David G. Healy]

On 6/23/2021 at 8:02 PM, John Butler said:

Well said Mr. Healey.  I wish I had to brains to say the same thing.  I've been a fan since the days when you did work with Jack White, John Costella, and James Fetzner.  

thanks John Butler, there were a few of us back then, for sure. I miss many including the above of course might want to add Rich DellaRosa, Greg Burnham David Lipton David Mantik and many more. But there's a hell of a crop of younger folks that are asking the right questions these days. One in particular Jim DiEugenio, couple him and his stable of contributors, dynamite combo...

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The conversation on the rooftop is worth noting;

Mr. TRULY...... And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the building. I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building." 

If Truly did in fact say the above, he doesn't come across as someone that has intent to frame Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all? 
Mr. TRULY.... I believe he said, yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that.

Is Truly saying that Baker heard somebody say the shots came from the building before he ran up to the roof? Who got in Baker's ear?

Mr. TRULY..... I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "Be careful, this man will blow your head off."

How did Baker know that someone had been shot before he ran up to the roof?

Tony,

What do you make of this?

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in

the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets,

Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President’s

Commission.

 

“Mr. Ball. Now, Mr. Truly, this is a continuation of your deposition. I took

the last one and you have been sworn and I don’t know that it is exactly

necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a continuation of the

deposition. I took the last one, didn’t I?

 

Mr. Truly. Oh, no ; I gave a statement that was under oath.

 

Mr. Ball. Oh, no ; this is a deposition. You appeared before the Commission —

that’s right.

 

Mr. Truly. Mr. Belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before

I went up there when you both were in Dallas and he also took a recorded

deposition.

 

Mr. Ball. Yes; but that was just an investigation, an inquiry. We didn’t

record that. You weren’t under oath then. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this

Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so

help you God?”

Are there any copies of the Belin/Truly deposition?  Gone with the wind?  This indicates that Ball was coaching Truly to say the right things?

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Are there any copies of the Belin/Truly deposition?  Gone with the wind?  This indicates that Ball was coaching Truly to say the right things?

This would be the Belin sworn deposition Truly referred to;

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39#relPageId=220

I have not seen the "inquiry" details in Dallas, which would pre-date his first testimony

[James DiEugenio]

Was there a pre-interview  interview of Truly?

[David Andrews]

On 6/24/2021 at 7:12 PM, Gil Jesus said:

I agree. And Truly took a lot of secrets with him to the grave. And another one I don't trust is the Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes. It seems to me that these people had an agenda.

I would add William Shelley to the list, but I will defer to expert opinion if need be.

Edited June 27, 2021 by David Andrews

[Tony Krome]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Was there a pre-interview  interview of Truly?

I'm thinking along the lines of all those timing runs they did. Somewhere in there they sat Truly and Baker down to hone the official sequence;

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we took the stairs down to the second floor lunch-room where Officer Baker encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.