Pete Mellor

K.K., Always a pleasure to update the Forum on what's happening in U.K. I wasn't able to Zoom in on the original meet due to having a ticket for a Manchester United game. So after my catch-up on You Tube there were a number of points that I thought researchers on this Forum may comment on. The Spainhouer film along with daughter Chana's input a case in point. Personally, I have never come across any serious discussion of this film. Groden infers Spainhouer's position somewhere in the vicinity of the 'supposed Badgeman', he also infers the use of a heavy tripod. The evidence is zilch. No pictures or statements from witnesses to seeing anyone who could fit. Unless all these figures disappeared into vehicle trunks in the GN parking area. I also had never heard of Oswald's Parkland operating room being recorded on film.

The Zoom session with Robert & Janet Groden with Dealey Plaza U.K. from March 25th '23, is now available on D.P.U.K.'s You Tube channel here:- The session is almost three and a half hours long, but covers Zapruder film and information on 'the other Zapruder film i.e.Spainhouer film + Oliver, Nix, Muchmore, L.H.O. Exhumation film, Pitzer, Arnold, L.H.O. in Parkland operating room and Similas photo. Slow at times, but scanning fwd to get to the meaty bits helps.

I have this on order Jim. I assume you have read this. In many previous publications i.e. Morley, Mangold, Weiner etc., all state that Angleton's mole hunt was fruitless. Veteran Case Officer George Kisevalter said, "Had there been a real 'Sasha', he could not have done as much damage to the clandestine services group as this phantom 'Sasha'." Also, three subsequent reviews by senior CIA officers reached the same conclusion. So too did Cleveland Cram, the senior officer who wrote a still classified multi-volume study of Angleton's operations. (The Ghost-Jefferson Morley) Reading Amazon's review:-However, Newman's work makes clear how the mole in the Security Office defected attention from himself by convincing the chief of CIA counterintelligence, James Angleton, that Oswald could be used as bait to find the mole working in CIA's Soviet Russia Division. Furthermore, Uncovering Popov's Mole shows how Angleton unknowingly provided all of the Agency's sensitive secrets to the mole in the Office of Security--as he had previously to Kim Philby. So, John Newman, it appears, has stunning new evidence that Angleton's long held belief in a mole high in CIA was legit. I have heard Malcolm Blunt speak of Bruce Solie being a suspect. Is this who Newman fingers in the book? Or do I have to wait for the Amazon delivery?

Yet another interesting line of investigation Greg! As per the Crafard threads.

Agree. JFKA can really be a can of worms! Suggest having a read of this:- State Secret Chapter1 (maryferrell.org):-by Bill Simpich. It covers the Marina/Webster link.

Gil, Wilcott & his wife Elsie were indeed CIA employees stationed in Tokyo. I do believe that there was much talk there, immediately at the time of the assassination of Oswald being 'sent to Russia' by the agency. Elsie was just a secretary at the Tokyo station, but she heard similar talk. James Douglass covers them in 'JFK & the Unspeakable'. The section on Oswald being debriefed back in Japan is completely new to me and not sure what to make of that. (Hearsay evidence.) As is his statement 'CIA as thick as thieves with DPD'. I don't put a great deal of weight on a paymaster's second hand talk information. Pinch of salt required here I think. Yet, I'm certain that James Wilcott & Elsie were sincere in their reporting.

Gerry, Dealey Plaza U.K. were holding a discussion some time back to suggest who we should get hold of for a Zoom session. My input was that the single most interesting person to question in the whole JFKA case would be Marina. Alas, not much chance of that coming off! So many questions, of her time in USSR alone, would be fascinating to know answers. Sadly, it's late in the day. Her health is poor. I reckon all these mysteries will remain. As for Webster, I don't see any reason for him to invent this claim. Also, she is supposed to have had Webster's Leningrad address in her notebook.

That's Pinky Westbrook Ron.

In 1963 Tracy Barnes was head of CIA's Domestic Operations Division. Alan Kent writes an interesting Essay, A Well Concealed 'T', in Albarelli and Leslie Sharp's 'Coup In Dallas' that examines the possibility that the 'T' regularly referred to in Pierre Lafitte's diary may likely be D.O.D.'s Tracy Barnes, who worked closely with James Angleton at Langley. Angleton strongly suspected by many to be the 'general manager' of the Dallas plot.

As an interesting addition to my own post above, there is a snippet contained in Bill Simpich's 'The Twelve Who Built the Oswald Legend' held on the MFF website that states Webster was involved in a 'honey strap' by a women named Ella. Would be interesting to learn if her surname was Soboleva. Also, I think, if memory serves, that Webster was interviewed sometime in the 90's by Dick Russell who told him that when he met with Marina in Leningrad that she spoke English! A Wilderness of Women.

Who knows Gerry? Seems a pretty clumsy way for any Soviet intell. contact, but added to the Leningrad Webster address in Marina's diary!?!

I realise this quote is from Edward Epstein's 'Legend' & I'm not a great fan of this author, but, interesting passage:- @Through its mail intercept programme which monitored letters sent from the Soviet Union to selected cities in the U.S., the CIA received further information about the Oswalds during the summer of '62. Even return addresses provided clues. For example, a letter sent to Marina from Ella Soboleva in Leningrad was subsequently traced from the return address on the envelope to the home of Igor Pavel Sobolev, whose name corresponded in the CIA computer to that of a suspected agent of the First Chief Directorate of the KGB who had been stationed in Vienna up to 1961. The question of whether this was an innocuous letter from the daughter of Sobolev or some confusion of names could not be determined by the CIA's tracing system.

Richard Case Nagell, though he put himself in the slammer. Abraham Bolden. Joyce MacDonald.

Clearer version of Hughes here:-

Michael, Read my post again. I have never expressed any political views about Israel. My post contains only quotes from books written by JFKA researchers. The post was to add info to Ron Bulman's input on this thread. What anyone thinks in relation to Israelis and Palestinians should really belong on another Forum.

Vince, this was broadcast on U.K. Ch.5 just a couple of weeks ago. As JFK assassination documentaries go, I thought this was one of the better produced and informative productions, apart from, like you say, the rubbish from Philip Shenon.

Oh well Michael, allow me. Mossad figure and future Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin, (in November '63), was then a high ranking military officer, purportedly on a military briefing tour, was in Dallas at the time of JFK's assassination, according to Rabin's widow. (Final Judgment-Michael Collins Piper) 'What has been shown beyond a reasonable doubt, at any rate, is that Angleton, the central CIA player in the plot, was in reality more controlled by Mossad than by CIA itself.' (The Unspoken Kennedy Truth-Laurent Guyenot) AND, let's not forget that Mr Ruby was a Yiddish speaking Rubenstein who told both his rabbi and his defence lawyer, "I did it for the Jews." It was Jack who when stalking after Oswald in the Dallas Police Dept., was posing as a news reporter with a number of Yiddish speaking out of town, supposed journalists. AND, George DeMohrenschildt was found dead with a bullet through his head. It was ruled a suicide, but the Sherriff's report mentions that in his last months he complained that 'the Jews' and 'Jewish mafia' were out to get him. His wife also told Jim Marrs that her husband thought that 'the Jewish Mafia' were out to get him.

Morley also writes:-'In December 1987 in Jerusalem with deputy Mossad chief Efraim Halevy, also four past and future chiefs of Mossad, his friends Meir Amit and Amos Manor and the upper echelon of Amal, the Israeli military intelligence service, came to pay tribute to their loyal friend in Washington.' John Newman writes:-'I would like to place on the record, however, that Angleton's professional friends overseas, then and subsequently, came from the Mossad and that he was held in immense esteem by his Israeli colleagues and by the state of Israel, which was to award him profound honours after his death.' Is there any chance Rabin's assassination in 1995 had a deeper connection with JFK's? George, the same thought has crossed my mind too! Who knows?

Michael, so much talk of everything but not a mention of Israel. (Anti-Semitic bias?) What proof exists in this case is made for a CIA rogue op. Chiefly involving James Angleton, who we know forced Whitten off the W.C./CIA job and put himself in place and lied and prevaricated to various requests and questions, principally the knowledge of Oswald in Mexico prior to the JFKA. As Rocca told Helms, Jim was willing to 'wait out' the Commission. Why would a CI chief wish to 'wait out' a government commission on the assassination of its president? Cui Bono, who had the most to gain from the removal of JFK? From your list it is clear that most people cite Mafia, LBJ, Texan Oil, JCS etc. Why no mention of Israel? Their military nuclear policy they considered absolutely vital to the survival of the country. JFK's removal would clear the way for Dimona to proceed. Mossad it is clear had James Angleton in their pocket and he had already betrayed U.S. policy, (nuclear non-proliferation) rather to favour Israel. It was Angleton who had personal control of CIA's Israeli desk, or Special Operations Group, for his duration of his term as CI chief. Were Mossad present in Dallas? Wasn't it a Jew who silenced the accused assassin/patsy? Among the researchers who consider Angleton the 'general manager' of Oswald and perhaps the entire plot are John Newman, Laurent Guyenot and with this Forum's Leslie Sharp who points to Lafitte's records of October '63 of JA's high-level gathering in D.C. for Operation 'Lancelot'. Also, Ann Egerter's testimony to HSCA that she opened Oswald's 201 file in December '60, which points to Oswald being a CIA employee who had come under suspicion by CI/SIG. (i.e. Angleton's investigation of Agency personnel who were suspected one way or another.) I don't see how Mafia, LBJ, Cuban exiles, JCS, Texan oil or Uncle Tom Cobbley and all could qualify to control such a devious plot at such a high level. It seems true that other agencies partook of the cover-up. Who the shooters (plural) were, nobody will ever know, nor who primarily initiated the intent. All this proof has been buried/shredded years back, all we are left with are pointers...in the direction of Langley and perhaps beyond.

👮‍♂️ Yeah, the investigation of the murder of the president of the U.S. turns into a Monty Python sketch.

Ron, Angleton's influence on U.S.-Israeli relationship touched upon the sensitive question of Israel's military nuclear ambition. In 1960 Angleton ignored a request from the U.S. Intelligence Board, which reviewed CIA operations on behalf of the White House, that all information regarding Dimona be transmitted expeditiously. Angleton also failed to notice, or report, about the stealing of weapons-grade enriched uranium from NUMEC in Apollo, Pennsylvania. NUMEC had been created under U.S. government license by David Lowenthal, a Zionist financier, and was run by Zalman Shapiro, the son of an orthodox rabbi from Lithuania, who also was head of the local chapter of the Zionist Organisation of America. Over the 9 years from '59 to '68, the Atomic Energy Corp., estimated that 267 kilograms of uranium went missing at the Apollo NUMEC plant. One Israeli, masquerading as a nuclear engineer who visited the plant was a Mossad agent named Rafael Eitan, who was known to Angleton. With the fissile material stolen from NUMEC Israel was able to construct it's first nuclear weapon by 1967 and become a full blown nuclear power by 1970-the first, and still the only nuclear power in the Middle East. Angleton, it is fair to say, thought collaboration with Israel was more important than U.S. non-proliferation policy. (CIA & Mossad-Jefferson Morley) Angleton's close personal ties with the DeShalit family and others in Israel made it inevitable that he would learn about the Dimona construction in the Negev. Yet he never reported on the Israeli's efforts to build a nuclear reactor for military purposes. (The Samson Option-Seymour Hersh) Angleton made his first visit to Israel in 1951. "He used to come from time to time, to meet the head of Mossad, to get briefings", recalls Efraim Halevy, who served as the Mossad's liason officer to the CIA station in Tel Aviv in the early 1960's. "He used to meet with David Ben Gurion whom he knew for many years. Ben Gurion ultimately left office in May '63 and Angleton went down to Ben Gurion's home in the Negev to meet him. I didn't attend those meetings. Those were just the two of them. He had business to transact." Angleton befriended Isser Harel founder of Shin Bet and chief of Mossad from 1951. He also had a lifetime friendship with Amos Manor, director of Shin Bet from 1953 to 1963, and of Meir Amit, head of Mossad from 1963 to 1968. When Yitzhak Rabin became Israeli ambassador to Washington (1968-73), Angleton met him as often as five times a week and had monthly lunches with Rabin. (The Ghost-Jefferson Morley) Mossad figure and future Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin, (in November '63), was then a high ranking military officer, purportedly on a military briefing tour, was in Dallas at the time of JFK's assassination, according to Rabin's widow. (Final Judgment-Michael Collins Piper)

Dealey Plaza U.K. had a Zoom session direct from the Beckley house with Pat Hall, she told of the above recollections of Lee plus some others. The Zoom meet was, as usual, recorded and is available on D.P.U.K.'s webpage.

Ron, Simpich has info worth reading here:- https://aarclibrary.org/the-jfk-case-the-twelve-who-built-the-oswald-legend-part-10-nightmare-in-mexico-city/

If it was a Warren Commission verdict, then Bugliosi subscribed to it.

Don't hold your breath Marjan, it could be fatal.