COUP IN DALLAS

[David Andrews]

On 8/4/2022 at 8:59 PM, Pat Speer said:

Without getting into the sloppy details, I watched way too many Trump speeches, read too many articles about Trump and his minions, and talked with way too many of his supporters in my purple congressional district. And it can not be reasonably argued that Trump was merely anti-illegal immigration. He and his supporters were adamantly against all non-white and non-Christian immigrants and the whole concept of "Make America Great Again" was code for "Make America white and Christian again." 

When one looks further at the meaning of the word "fascist" one should realize that this applies to Mr. Trump far and beyond that of most conservatives, and that it's actually quite appropriate. His wrapping himself in the flag...his enthusiasm for military parades...his vilification of the press...his demonization of his enemies...his refusal to concede an election...these are all plays from the fascist playbook. 

Not to cross swords with you, Pat - but was/is Trump actually for or against anything?  His rank opportunism always seems to deny a belief system.  What he "supports" is in the interest of acquiring political capital among voters.  We'd merely chide a less obvious climber - and a less dangerous one - for being a politician.

Edited August 6, 2022 by David Andrews

[Michael Griffith]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Trump is separated into a new "bad character and bad behavior" territory category from any previous "less than ideal man " President to such an epic degree, it's ... well ... crazy!

What other President tried to initiate a violent coup by thousands of worked up death threat shouting mob thugs ( with our own Capital building full of our Congress as a main target of attack ) after being constitutionally voted out of office?

Sorry, downplaying Trump's treasonous acts of trying to subvert, overturn and even overthrow our most important democratic process lawful election as no more serious and dangerous as other bad character President's behavior ( Watergate was nothing compared to the Jan.6th attack ) is so logically and even factually weak it's not even worth debating ... imo.

We are in new "clear and present danger" to our democracy territory with Donald Trump as stated on live TV to 20 million Americans by highly revered conservative Federal Judge Michael Luttig.

Former VP Dick Chaney just stated the same warning and added the title of "COWARD" to Donald Trump's character and actions.

Arizona Republican Rusty Bowers also proclaimed to national TV audiences that Trump "has no courage."

These few big boulder Trump criticism cliff crumblings are signaling a much large landslide of full blown no holds barred Trump repudiation. 

Oh, sorry.

I just realized this post should be in the Joseph McBride thread at the top of our forum index page.

However, the Michael Griffith post above defending by down playing Donald Trump's bad character and behavior made me forget the new rule.

I'll delete this post if MG's off thread topic post is deleted as well.

It is these kinds of extreme, wild far-left attacks that make so many conservatives think that if you believe JFK was killed by a conspiracy you must also believe all of the far-left politics that come with most pro-conspiracy books. 

Democrats had no problem claiming that the 2016 election was stolen via Russian interference, a myth that the Mueller Report debunked (and that subsequent investigation has proved came from the Hillary campaign and the DNC). Nor did Democrats have any problem claiming that the 2000 election was stolen. Gee, funny how those stolen-election claims did not "undermine democracy," "undermine the democratic process," "seek to overturn an election," etc., etc., but when many Republicans, for very good reasons, argue that the 2020 election was stolen via serious election fraud, suddenly it's undemocratic to question election results. 

But the key point is that such issues have no place in a book about an event that occurred in 1963. It should be enough to say that we cannot have powerful elites assassinating presidents because they don't like their policies, and we cannot have new media who sheepishly repeat the cover-up claims generated by those who were part of the crime.

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I think that is patently absurd. I watched many, many Trump speeches too, and I heard him say over and over again that he was fine with legal immigration but opposed illegal immigration. He also made the common-sense point that at least some legal immigrants should have job skills that are needed in our economy, just as many European nations require.

Although Trump was my fourth pick among GOP candidates in the 2016 GOP primary, I worked as a volunteer in his campaign in the general election, and I never heard anyone--not one single person--express the view that we should halt all forms of immigration, much less that we needed to "make America white again." I never heard a word of any such thing in all the many hours I spent among Trump supporters. Not once.

Furthermore, in the Trump years, legal immigration largely mirrored what it was in previous decades:

Key findings about U.S. immigrants | Pew Research Center

The key point is that barbs against Trump over immigration policy, much less sweeping tar-brush attacks on conservatives, have no place in a book on the JFK assassination. The infusion of far-left politics into pro-conspiracy JFK books is the reason that so many people have the perception that only liberals doubt the WC, that only liberals believe in a JFK assassination plot, etc., etc. 

Alright. This discussion belongs on another thread. But let me say in closing that it's clear you live somewhere where the people supported Trump because he claimed to represent conservative values, and where their attraction to him was based on something other than what attracted people to him in states like California, Texas, Florida, on down the line...

I'm guessing...Utah?

[Allen Lowe]

5 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

It is these kinds of extreme, wild far-left attacks that make so many conservatives think that if you believe JFK was killed by a conspiracy you must also believe all of the far-left politics that come with most pro-conspiracy books. 

Democrats had no problem claiming that the 2016 election was stolen via Russian interference, a myth that the Mueller Report debunked (and that subsequent investigation has proved came from the Hillary campaign and the DNC). Nor did Democrats have any problem claiming that the 2000 election was stolen. Gee, funny how those stolen-election claims did not "undermine democracy," "undermine the democratic process," "seek to overturn an election," etc., etc., but when many Republicans, for very good reasons, argue that the 2020 election was stolen via serious election fraud, suddenly it's undemocratic to question election results. 

But the key point is that such issues have no place in a book about an event that occurred in 1963. It should be enough to say that we cannot have powerful elites assassinating presidents because they don't like their policies, and we cannot have new media who sheepishly repeat the cover-up claims generated by those who were part of the crime.

For such an astute observer, Michael,  you’re surprisingly nearsighted. The Democrats never claimed the Russians stole the elections but that they tampered with the election. There is a difference. But even the fact that you’re comparing the Democrats complaints to the Republican complaints shows how myopic you are in this whole subject. I’m sorry to say this because you’ve done some very good writing on the assassination. But if you can’t even recognize Trump’s brand of very American fascism, embodied by his attempted coup, then we have very little more to discuss here. And Mueller did nothing of a kind. There was a subtlety to Russian misbehavior that has apparently alluded you; according to Time magazine:

“Mueller spent almost 200 pages describing “numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign.” He found that “a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.” He also found that “a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations” against the Clinton campaign and then released stolen documents.”

Edited August 6, 2022 by Allen Lowe

[Michael Griffith]

Just to be clear, I condemn the January 6 riot. I think some of the sentences that have been handed down on some of the participants have been overly harsh, but storming the Capitol was an outrageous action, and everyone who took part deserves punishment.

I also believe that the January 6 committee has presented credible evidence that after the riot started, Trump purposely delayed calling on his supporters to stand down. This, in my view, made him an accessory during the act. If this evidence had come to light while Trump was still in office, Congress would have had every right to impeach him and remove him from office, and I believe the GOP should repudiate Trump and expel from the party based on this evidence.

All this being said, it should also be noted that before the rally, Trump called on his supporters to engage in peaceful protest. Most of the protestors at the rally did not take part in the riot. Before the rally, Trump made a sincere effort to ensure that there was adequate security around the Capitol, an effort that was rejected by Nancy Pelosi, as we now know. Even when Pelosi was notified of intelligence that indicated some of the protestors planned to storm the Capitol, she declined to implement added security measures suggested by Trump and others. If you are not aware of these facts, then your news sources have a liberal bias.

Finally, although this is no excuse for his delay in calling on his supporters to stand down after the riot started, Trump and his supporters had every reason to be upset about the election because there was in fact substantial election fraud in seven key swing states and in at least two other states. If you care to read some of the election-fraud evidence, I maintain a website on the subject:

Election Fraud in 2020 (google.com)

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Chuck Schwartz]

Trump and his partners in crime challenged election results in the court systems in many states.  And, they lost all court  cases.  There was no fraud. Only feeble attempts to steal various state elections in key swing states.  Of course, where Trump won, there was no fraud - only states where Trump lost  .   Heads I win , tails you lose?

[Ron Ege]

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Just to be clear, I condemn the January 6 riot. I think some of the sentences that have been handed down on some of the participants have been overly harsh, but storming the Capitol was an outrageous action, and everyone who took part deserves punishment.

I also believe that the January 6 committee has presented credible evidence that after the riot started, Trump purposely delayed calling on his supporters to stand down. This, in my view, made him an accessory during the act. If this evidence had come to light while Trump was still in office, Congress would have had every right to impeach him and remove him from office, and I believe the GOP should repudiate Trump and expel from the party based on this evidence.

All this being said, it should also be noted that before the rally, Trump called on his supporters to engage in peaceful protest. Most of the protestors at the rally did not take part in the riot. Before the rally, Trump made a sincere effort to ensure that there was adequate security around the Capitol, an effort that was rejected by Nancy Pelosi, as we now know. Even when Pelosi was notified of intelligence that indicated some of the protestors planned to storm the Capitol, she declined to implement added security measures suggested by Trump and others. If you are not aware of these facts, then your news sources have a liberal bias.

Finally, although this is no excuse for his delay in calling on his supporters to stand down after the riot started, Trump and his supporters had every reason to be upset about the election because there was in fact substantial election fraud in seven key swing states and in at least two other states. If you care to read some of the election-fraud evidence, I maintain a website on the subject:

Election Fraud in 2020 (google.com)

 

https://adnamerica.com/en/united-states/trump-pentagon-first-offered-national-guard-capitol-four-days-jan-6-riots-memo-shows

 

There are other sites with the same information/timeline.  

Seems like a "kinda-sorta" of a "stand down" - maybe?

Wondering where that might have happened before.

[Kirk Gallaway]

To fuel public passion about a stolen election when elections are controlled by the states and ended up with the Democrats barely gaining the slimmest majority in the Senate, (really only because of Trump's interference in Georgia)and actually losing seats in the House, while the margin between Biden and Trump is 7 million  votes is just the grossest plea to the  gullibility of Trump's followers.The closeness of the 2020 elections doesn't even rate in the top 5, and Trump won one of those elections while losing the popular vote in 2016.

in fairness, Michael seems to feel some gravity in something concerning  the 1/6 riots, but his kowtowing to the election lie rhetoric in his heavily Republican district presents a very poor example of inflating the expectations of this windfall of discontented voters who the Republicans have no  real intention of lending a  helping hand to, but their only real promise is to continue to use this lie, among other lies, to inflame their culture war rhetoric aspirations in the future.

History will someday write about the  stubborn refusal of some Trump supporters to see the general resistance to Trump as anything other than "politics as usual." and to see the reaction at the insurrection of the Capitol as anything other than "faux outrage" used for partisan political advantage. While Michael doesn't fall in this category. He certainly doesn't end up doing much to diffuse it.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Richard Price]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

History will someday write about the  stubborn refusal of some Trump supporters to see the general resistance to Trump as anything other than "politics as usual." and to see the reaction at the insurrection of the Capitol as anything other than "faux outrage" used for partisan political advantage.

I will make one quick comment and move on, as this topic seems to have derailed from the original post quite a bit.  In my locality just north of Atlanta, GA, I think the stubbornness and "fixed" election claims come from the fact that 70% (or more) of the population other than in the CITY is either registered Republican or generally votes that way.  These people can't seem to see how, with that kind of majority, the election could have went to Democrats without "the fix" being in.  They do not comprehend how the man who only lies when his mouth is moving, who belittles/degrades/bullies anyone who does not agree with him and who is ONLY looking for personal benefits and subservience could not possibly have gotten 51% of the vote.  They do not factor in that this is still part of the "bible belt" and a good majority of the residents, whether Democrat or Republican leaning, still expect a candidate to have limits on his amorality, greed and avarice.  The erosion of these people from the Trumplicans is what spelled defeat here and in some of the other places he lost legitimately.  These personal characteristics also motivated the number of Democrats to show up at the polls, I know because I and my wife were two of those.  We do not always bother voting because in our area it generally is useless if you prefer the Democrat in local elections, we are outnumbered almost 4-1.  In statewide races it is different as we can help narrow the margin of loss because every vote counts and the candidate does not win by county/voting district margins, but by the sum total of all votes. 

[Paul Brancato]

When reading Michael’s statement that Trump and his followers are only against illegal immigration, I’m reminded of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. 
as for the allegation that Pelosi turned down a request to authorize National Guard deployment at the Capital on Jan 6, it looks like the old technique of repeating a lie over and over again in hopes of substituting that lie for truth. 

[Allen Lowe]

The thing to remember about this nonsense about election fraud is that it makes no sense, because if the Dems cooked the results in the presidential, why did they not do the same to make sure they had an impenetrable majority in the Senate? This is starting to sound like claims of Zapruder fakery, which ignore the basic logic that if they wanted to suppress the images they would have destroyed the film, not let it come out in ways which convinced the rest of the world that there was a conspiracy.

[Joe Bauer]

‘Oh what a tangled web we weave/When first we practice to deceive.

Sounds like Shakespeare. It's a quote from Sir Walter Scott.

More and more of Trump's most loyal soldiers and enablers are getting trapped in their own webs of deceit.

Bannon has already been convicted of contempt. Rudy Ghouliani and many others are just about to be called to grand juries. More convictions will certainly follow.

All of these "loyal to the end" Trump lieutenants will have their reputations and legacies tarnished forever by sticking with their deluded and paranoid Captain Queeg even while their more and more crew abandoned ship is sinking. 

The only defense stance Trump followers can grasp onto is to downplay, downplay, downplay the super violent attack on the Capital building. While it was filled with our entire congress!

However, the truth is too strong to deny.

This coup attempt was the most serious constitution law violation attack on our democracy since the Civil War.

If the attackers were progressives Trump and his people would be framing the attack as nothing short of another Pearl Harbor and calling for long prison terms and even worse punishments.

Trump would have ordered in heavily armed troops within 5 minutes with orders to shoot to kill. And afterwards bragged to the nation that "he" saved the country from the heathen hordes of left wing radical thugs!

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Benjamin Cole]

On 8/7/2022 at 2:34 AM, Allen Lowe said:

For such an astute observer, Michael,  you’re surprisingly nearsighted. The Democrats never claimed the Russians stole the elections but that they tampered with the election. There is a difference. But even the fact that you’re comparing the Democrats complaints to the Republican complaints shows how myopic you are in this whole subject. I’m sorry to say this because you’ve done some very good writing on the assassination. But if you can’t even recognize Trump’s brand of very American fascism, embodied by his attempted coup, then we have very little more to discuss here. And Mueller did nothing of a kind. There was a subtlety to Russian misbehavior that has apparently alluded you; according to Time magazine:

“Mueller spent almost 200 pages describing “numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign.” He found that “a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.” He also found that “a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations” against the Clinton campaign and then released stolen documents.”

200 pages?

There were 24 volumes in the Warren Report. 

The Warren Commission, the Mueller Report, the old HUAC committee hearings---any state investigation that does not have meet court standards, and in which there is a stout defense---becomes a prosecutorial fantasy. 

Who calls witnesses? What evidence is presented? Who controls the narrative? Who controls a compliant media (through leaks and other goodies). Remember, there is no judge to even begin to help set a level playing field.

State investigations played out in the media are essentially show trials. 

This does not exonerate Trump, anymore than the WC exonerated LHO. 

It is something to think about. 

[Charles Blackmon]

21 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

The thing to remember about this nonsense about election fraud is that it makes no sense, because if the Dems cooked the results in the presidential, why did they not do the same to make sure they had an impenetrable majority in the Senate? This is starting to sound like claims of Zapruder fakery, which ignore the basic logic that if they wanted to suppress the images they would have destroyed the film, not let it come out in ways which convinced the rest of the world that there was a conspiracy.

If the conspirators had destroyed the film, the whole nation would know that there had been a conspiracy and not just those of us who question the so-called evidence implicating LHO alone. 

[Allen Lowe]

8 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

If the conspirators had destroyed the film, the whole nation would know that there had been a conspiracy and not just those of us who question the so-called evidence implicating LHO alone. 

nope. That's not the way it was back then. It would have all faded into oblivion.  I know this shoots to smithereens the whole "altered Zapruder film" thing, but your position makes absolutely no sense. That kid's pictures of the RFK assassination disappeared, and no one has squeaked a word about what they probably showed.

And you seem to have forgotten that the Zapruder was suppressed for 12 years anyway. Tell me, who in that time saw this as evidence of conspiracy? Did the whole nation use this as evidence of conspiracy? Cite one source (and yes, I know that many people thought the assassination was a conspiracy, but NOT because of the withholding of the film).

As a matter of fact, with the showing of the film on Geraldo all hell broke loose. It was really the beginning of a new chapter in terms of examining the assassination. All enabled by the FILM. I guess they didn't do a good enough job of editing.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Allen Lowe