Jefferson Morley on A Major Break Coming in the JFK Assassination Story

[Matt Allison]

51 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

JMO, value your input Matt.

All good, Ron; I value yours as well. Cheers

[Lori Spencer]

4 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

You know what's really interesting now is with the release of the Twitter Files and the FBI having Hunter's Laptop and having meetings with Yoel Roth, they prebunked a story that they held the evidence for and knew it wasn't Russian disinformation. Then the NY post article came out with the Intelligence officials saying that their expertise suggested to them that it was Russian disinfo. It's a pretty big scandal, if the United States had an actual media that wasn't owned by a couple of wallstreet hedge funds it would be. 

This ☝️. 
 

We now know after Zuckerberg’s Joe Rogan interview — and now Elon’s big Twitter Files reveal this week — that the government works directly with the press and social media platforms to plant disinformation and suppress true information. 
 

Not that anyone here who studies the cover-up of the JFK Assassination is one bit surprised, of course. (Tell us something we don’t know!) 

[Lori Spencer]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

. It overwhelmingly looks like Oswald was a false defector or agent of some sort but all intelligence agencies have denied he was one of theirs and to date proof has been elusive.

Oswald must’ve been pretty slick … nearly 60 years later, even the best intelligence analysts in Russia and the US are STILL trying to figure out who he worked for. 
 

If he was an agent, that tends to indicate he was a damn good one. 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Lori Spencer said:

This ☝️. 
 

We now know after Zuckerberg’s Joe Rogan interview — and now Elon’s big Twitter Files reveal this week — that the government works directly with the press and social media platforms to plant disinformation and suppress true information. 
 

Not that anyone here who studies the cover-up of the JFK Assassination is one bit surprised, of course. (Tell us something we don’t know!) 

I agree---and btw, the 'Phants and Donks pay the same game, and it is hardball. 

If a major party can weaponize the media and prosecutorial agencies, they will. 

The Deep State too. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Just now, Lori Spencer said:

Oswald must’ve been pretty slick … nearly 60 years later, even the best intelligence analysts in Russia and the US are STILL trying to figure out who he worked for. 
 

If he was an agent, that tends to indicate he was a damn good one. 

Well...perhaps more of an asset, than an agent (technically, an officer of the CIA). 

Remember, back in the 1960s, a more rough and ready time, the CIA had literally thousands of assets floating around the US and Latin America, ranging from former military guys, to mercenaries, to anti-Castro and anti-communists, exiles, student groups, coopted newspaper people, and more (also, military guys on loan, so to speak). 

My guess is LHO was one of those thousands. 

[Gerry Down]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

This seems very significant. I almost feel like it deserves a thread of its own. It overwhelmingly looks like Oswald was a false defector or agent of some sort but all intelligence agencies have denied he was one of theirs and to date proof has been elusive. This Gervais account sounds credible and it is unfortunate he remained silent despite your efforts. At least could you consider doing this: could you, perhaps with the assistance of a lawyer for form and wording, prepare a notarized sworn statement with as much detail as you can accurately recall of when, where, and what Gervais told you then. If Gervais never talks, your sworn statement may be all there is, and it is important. In addition, I am sorry to hear there was not much interest from e.g. Fonzi or Simpich, but if it is possible, to enlist two or three real heavyweights--on the order of Tunnheim or Newman or Lawrence Schnapf (or another try with Simpich)--to combine to approach and impress upon Mr. Gervais the historical significance of his testimony--perhaps that could persuade him to talk while it is still possible. Thank you for your efforts.  

If Gervais is telling the truth it does not necessarily mean LHO was ONI. Firstly, people who are ONI do not go around telling people they are ONI. And secondly, even if LHO was ONI it might have only been for a short stint at the Queen Bee and then LHO gave all the details of this undercover work to the soviets when he defected to Russia.

[Larry Hancock]

As far as the agencies, both FBI and CIA go (as well as ONI, AFOSI) etc, there was a good bit of differences between "sources" (some witting but some used through cut outs not revealing an agency connection), informants (who were closely involved with some activity to provide detailed information, not just suspicions, rumors, gossip), informants who could be used supporting arrests and charges and assets (people who were approved for use in actual intel operations).  Oswald could have been any of these at certain times, he did volunteer information to the FBI and in the case of the ONI he could either have been a witting or  unwitting source (perhaps just offering information on his bar contacts to a third party who was cleared as an actual ONI source and turning up in a file because of that). 

 

[Allen Lowe]

8 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

This seems very significant. I almost feel like it deserves a thread of its own. It overwhelmingly looks like Oswald was a false defector or agent of some sort but all intelligence agencies have denied he was one of theirs and to date proof has been elusive. This Gervais account sounds credible and it is unfortunate he remained silent despite your efforts. At least could you consider doing this: could you, perhaps with the assistance of a lawyer for form and wording, prepare a notarized sworn statement with as much detail as you can accurately recall of when, where, and what Gervais told you then. If Gervais never talks, your sworn statement may be all there is, and it is important. In addition, I am sorry to hear there was not much interest from e.g. Fonzi or Simpich, but if it is possible, to enlist two or three real heavyweights--on the order of Tunnheim or Newman or Lawrence Schnapf (or another try with Simpich)--to combine to approach and impress upon Mr. Gervais the historical significance of his testimony--perhaps that could persuade him to talk while it is still possible. Thank you for your efforts.  

thanks - it's been years since I talked to the guy, happy to do a sworn statement; will try first to reach him this week (not sure, unfortunately, if he is still living, and he was estranged from his family last I talked to him)

[Paul Brancato]

On 12/10/2022 at 9:57 AM, Bob Ness said:

It fits his profile perfectly. It draws attention to the only thing important in the world today, if not ever. Donald Trump.

When Trump said what he saw convinced him not to release documents I believe the documents he was actually referring to were about him - blackmail.

[Joe Bauer]

The thing that always throws me in the Oswald "secret agent" or even informant scenario is this:

Oswald was financially so stressed in his entire time back here in the states it was often welfare level desperate.

His marriage was often on the rocks because if it. Marina's health was greatly neglected because of this. His child's basic needs were barely met. Oswald had to endure much humiliation when others had to step in and help his wife and children.

It all reached a breaking point when Marina told Lee she didn't want to go back with him.

Oswald had to take buses everywhere. ( anyone here ever have to do this as an adult? Talk about inconvenient ) He had to ask other poor fellows like Buell Frazier for rides. He had to take the crummiest of jobs at the lowest wages. He could only afford dinky no privacy $8 a week, shared bath and refrigerator rooms or the YMCA?

Talk about a miserable and humiliating, dependent on others lifestyle.

How could any government agency ask anyone to participate in their programs and at the same time allow them to live in the most desperate welfare situation like that?

Agent E. Howard Hunt lived the highest privileged wealthy class lifestyle with Cadillacs, expensive cigars, property estates, country clubs and private schools for his children.

Agent ( or even informant?) Oswald lived the most desperate lowest welfare one.

Maybe Oswald's note to the Dallas FBI was a higher informant compensation pay demand one ... or else? 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

The thing that always throws me in the "Oswald Secret Agent" scenario is this:

Oswald was financially so stressed in his entire time back here in the states it was often welfare level desperate.

His marriage was constantly on the rocks because if it. Marina's health was greatly neglected because of this. His child's basic needs were barely met. Oswald had to endure much humiliation when others had to step in and help his wife and children.

It all reached a breaking point when Marina told Lee she didn't want to go back with him.

Oswald had to take buses everywhere. ( anyone here ever have to do this as an adult? Talk about inconvenient ) He had to ask other poor fellows like Buell Frazier for rides. He had to take the crummiest of jobs at the lowest wages. He could only afford dinky no privacy $8 a week, shared bath and refrigerator rooms or the YMCA?

Greyhound was his one indulgence?

Talk about a miserable and humiliating, dependent on others lifestyle.

How could any government agency ask anyone to participate in their programs and at the same time allow them to live in the most desperate welfare situation like that?

Agent E. Howard Hunt lived the highest privileged wealthy class life style with Cadillacs, expensive cigars, property estates, country clubs and private schools for his children.

Agent Oswald lived the most desperate lowest welfare one.

Maybe Oswald's note to the Dallas FBI was a higher informant compensation pay demand one ... or else? 

 

 

And yet according to some there was $3000 worth of camera equipment stored at Payne's. That's a lot of value but not that much for equipment then. He never did drive so buses were his most likely mode of transport.

I'm also not sure confidential informants were paid much, if any at all. Quite a bit of the activity of many sources was not financially motivated and was ideological. Agents running sources would prefer those types to begin with coupled with egoistic motivations as they are more malleable and reliable. Whether Oswald rose above the CI category is difficult to say as much of the information about him is or was guarded.

Hunt was actually an agency employee and isn't comparable to Oswald. Like David Phillips or Bill Harvey, they received compensation through acknowledged federal employment whereas Oswald (theoretically) was under deep cover on a specific assignment, possibly with ONI or a combination of agencies. He could have been ordered to do it. The theory that he was a "marked card" sent to root out an agency mole by monitoring responses stateside to his defection or reports can't be ruled out. Internal employment records would be altered as well as payment records.

That would be an excellent use of an otherwise low value enlisted man with some perceived value and Russian language skills. It totally makes sense and isn't at all beyond the games the Soviet and US intelligence communities were playing on each other.

I've seen the DD214's of other employees of the ONI and can assure you that they don't include things like "Sent to spy on Russia" in their assignment column even though I know roughly what their assignments were. Your suspicions certainly have merit but like everything else in this case just about anything isn't out of the question.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Guest]

On 12/12/2022 at 11:17 AM, Joe Bauer said:

The thing that always throws me in the "Oswald Secret Agent" scenario is this:

Oswald was financially so stressed in his entire time back here in the states it was often welfare level desperate.

His marriage was constantly on the rocks because if it. Marina's health was greatly neglected because of this. His child's basic needs were barely met. Oswald had to endure much humiliation when others had to step in and help his wife and children.

It all reached a breaking point when Marina told Lee she didn't want to go back with him.

Oswald had to take buses everywhere. ( anyone here ever have to do this as an adult? Talk about inconvenient ) He had to ask other poor fellows like Buell Frazier for rides. He had to take the crummiest of jobs at the lowest wages. He could only afford dinky no privacy $8 a week, shared bath and refrigerator rooms or the YMCA?

Greyhound was his one indulgence?

Talk about a miserable and humiliating, dependent on others lifestyle.

How could any government agency ask anyone to participate in their programs and at the same time allow them to live in the most desperate welfare situation like that?

Agent E. Howard Hunt lived the highest privileged wealthy class life style with Cadillacs, expensive cigars, property estates, country clubs and private schools for his children.

Agent Oswald lived the most desperate lowest welfare one.

Maybe Oswald's note to the Dallas FBI was a higher informant compensation pay demand one ... or else? 

 

 

Hi

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Bob Ness]

3 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Joe, I made this same point here years ago, and you graciously agreed with me then. Oswald's alleged role with the FBI and/or CIA was so "undercover" that he stayed away from the hospital when Rachel was born because he feared they'd charge him, kept his baby in a cardboard box, rented roach-infested hovels, and feuded with Marina over the barest necessities. THAT, by God, is deep undercover - or perhaps, as Occam might say, he simply had no relationship with the FBI or CIA at all.

Possibly. But there is strong documentary evidence now that Oswald was a false defector due to the fact that documents regarding him were routed circuitously around normal channels PRIOR to his defection. Although that doesn't sound condemning to the casual person, it would be a standard bureaucratic maneuver in an intelligence agency to obscure any role Oswald may be playing. Any concrete record of potential Oswald activity (memos, file descriptions etc) could be expunged but the more oblique references are difficult to completely remove. The same goes for incorrectly filed records although I'm not aware of any of those. 

In my experience the functioning "spies" I have known were mostly kooks or very weird people with the exception of one, who was a committed communist revealed in the Venona project. He and his wife were great, humble people but also lived out of the ordinary. One, involved with the CIA in southeast Asia was certifiably nuts but also the best in the world (or close to) at what he did. Another one was with Army intelligence I believe and helped set up, record and monitor MLK. Absolutely nuts. Many of these operators (as opposed to "Agents") are used for exactly that reason. Normal people wouldn't do some of the stuff they engage in. Trust me. You wouldn't either.

So... Oswald being off kilter isn't a profound revelation. I totally expect it. All the proper English majors became teachers. People like Oswald? Not so much.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Allen Lowe]

12 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

As far as the agencies, both FBI and CIA go (as well as ONI, AFOSI) etc, there was a good bit of differences between "sources" (some witting but some used through cut outs not revealing an agency connection), informants (who were closely involved with some activity to provide detailed information, not just suspicions, rumors, gossip), informants who could be used supporting arrests and charges and assets (people who were approved for use in actual intel operations).  Oswald could have been any of these at certain times, he did volunteer information to the FBI and in the case of the ONI he could either have been a witting or  unwitting source (perhaps just offering information on his bar contacts to a third party who was cleared as an actual ONI source and turning up in a file because of that). 

 

Larry - don't know if you saw my prior post about a guy I talked to in the 1990s who told me Oswald had told him he worked for ONI, even before LHO went to Russia.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Allen Lowe

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Joe, I made this same point here years ago, and you graciously agreed with me then. Oswald's alleged role with the FBI and/or CIA was so "undercover" that he stayed away from the hospital when Rachel was born because he feared they'd charge him, kept his baby in a cardboard box, rented roach-infested hovels, and feuded with Marina over the barest necessities. THAT, by God, is deep undercover - or perhaps, as Occam might say, he simply had no relationship with the FBI or CIA at all.

I'm late to this thread, but I would note here as I did on Tracy's site: The National Press Club is a favorite means of giving a superficial veneer of significance to nonsense. It's a favorite of the UFO community as well. In fact, it's a for-hire forum that can be rented by pretty much anyone for pretty much any reason. Morley's breaking non-news generated the same sort of scant attendance by serious journalists as the typical UFO event, which speaks volumes. If Morley had anything of significance, he would sit down with a serious, reputable journalist or historian from a serious, reputable publication or institution and generate a serious piece of work that would withstand scrutiny by serious, reputable peers.

 

At the very least, I think we should reserve judgment on Oswald finances until we finally get a chance to see his tax records - which might be a while.

Oswald also supposedly ran a one-man propaganda operation in New Orleans that included hiring helpers, printing flyers, etc. while unemployed and told Dean Andrews he was getting paid for it - and there is credible evidence suggesting that he may have even rented an office.

In your thread on Oswald’s denials you propose that 1) Oswald had a completely irrational ideological/personal psychotic motive for shooting the President that was so powerful he was willing to die for it; and 2) after getting arrested he had an epiphany, put together a master plan, and became a totally rational Oscar-worthy actor in the span of about 20 minutes. 

Thus, in the spirit of bending imaginations with armchair psychology, I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to think that Oswald could have been happy to help out his government for little to no compensation. 

There’s a theory for you: Oswald got pissed off at the government for using him repeatedly as an informant/asset without paying him and decided to strike back. That motive makes a hell of a lot more sense than Oswald murdering JFK to “vindicate him” to his wife and the Cubans…

Edited December 13, 2022 by Tom Gram