The CIA analysis of the Z film

[James DiEugenio]

Gary:

You're saying that they thought Connally was not hit until 280?

And then this was changed because of the necessity of the Single Bullet Fantasy?

 

[Gary Murr]

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Gary:

You're saying that they thought Connally was not hit until 280?

And then this was changed because of the necessity of the Single Bullet Fantasy?

 

Hi Jim:

Apologies for not responding sooner to your question, but I did not see it until this morning. In essence what you have deduced as a result of looking at my chapter 18 is correct. I am arguing that as of the date of this the first in a series of lengthy sessions with the Zapruder, January 27, 1964, WC counsels Ball, Belin, Eisenberg and Redlich are of the opinion that Connally may have been wounded in a time span encompassing “frames 56 thru 73”, the Frederick Webb based Z film numbering system. What I believe I have shown in this chapter is that when one couples the Webb numbering system with the Shaneyfelt drawings, and interpret this information in terms of the eventually accepted “official” Shaneyfelt Z film numbering system, one arrives at a WC staff time frame for the potential wounding of John Connally that encompasses Z280 to Z297. At this moment in time, late January, 1964 this hypothesis was, I feel, acceptable to these same members of the WC staff. However, what was unknown to them was a factor forthcoming that would generate, in part, the necessity of the single bullet theory. And that factor was the time necessary to fire consecutive shots from the alleged weapon of the assassination, the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSBD.

As you are probably aware, marksmen utilized in “speed” testing to operate the manual bolt action of the Carcano generated an accepted time frame of 2.6 seconds [average] between shots, a physical action that did not include the factor of aiming. But putting that aside, when one takes this time frame and equates it to the accepted Z film fps speed one is left with the fact that 47 frames of Zapruder film will “pass” thru the camera before the next shot can be fired [47.58 frames to be precise – 2.6 X 18.3 = 47.58].  If the WC and its staff were to accept the operational factor of an average of 2.6 seconds between shots, which they were willing to do, then what does this mean for the wounding of John Connally as surmised by members of the WC staff in late January of 1964? Quite simply if accepted it would have necessitated a second shooter because; taking the “low” end of the WC staff Connally wounding time span of frame 56/Z280 + 47 frames = Z327; taking the “high” end of the WC staff wounding time span of frame 73/Z297 + 47 frames = Z344. Or put in simpler terms, as of January 27, 1964 members of the WC staff have arrived at a Connally wounding time frame that encompasses Z327 thru Z344 – sheer poison because it is uncontested that JFK is fatally hit at Z313. And whether one accepts a Connally “hit” at Z327 or as late as Z344, neither scenario allows enough frame time to operate the alleged weapon of the assassination to fire the “second” shot that impacted, in the WC staff time frame – i.e. Z327 – Z313 = 14 z frames or Z344 – Z313 = 31Z frames, both falling short of the needed 47Z frames to reload.

Hopefully this makes sense…

Gary

 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks for that Gary.

Why did they choose 280?  Is that when JBC fell over?

 

[Chris Bristow]

Frame 280 obviously didn't line up with a single bullet theory but it also would have to come from the South East corner of the plaza to take the path it did through Connally. It would have come real close to Nellie. 
It looks like he is turned about 200 degrees to his right from his forward position in 280. That would mean the path would lead back to the North East corner of terminal annex building on Commerce and Huston pretty much right where J.C. price was sitting.
Strange that they would have even considered a shot at 280 if they were trying to support the lone gunman theory.

[John Butler]

9 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Frame 280 obviously didn't line up with a single bullet theory but it also would have to come from the South East corner of the plaza to take the path it did through Connally. It would have come real close to Nellie. 
It looks like he is turned about 200 degrees to his right from his forward position in 280. That would mean the path would lead back to the North East corner of terminal annex building on Commerce and Huston pretty much right where J.C. price was sitting.
Strange that they would have even considered a shot at 280 if they were trying to support the lone gunman theory.

Chris,

I had to look at the Z 280 frame to see what you were talking about.  Exactly.  The South Knoll would be the place if Connally was shot at Z280 and not at about Z225 when Kennedy is first shot according to Zapruder.   The shot would have to narrowly miss Nellie.  That is about the only reasonable suggestion that I have heard for shooting from the South Knoll.

The figures here look like cut outs.  How easy would it be to fake this scene?

Could use something like this?  I'm not much of a computer artist, but this would be better done by a professional film editor.  All you would have to do is fill in the appropriate film scene from another film or from an earlier part of the film such as the Zapruder Gap.  If you just stuck to doing this then editing the whole film would not take that long for a team of film editors.  The motorcade was probably filmed from the first and second floor of buildings all along the motorcade route.  There would be plenty of film available for replacement scenes if mobile TV cameras were used that would transmit the data back to a central location.  Say, such as a big truck parked at the Dal-Tex or some other location along the route.

If anything like this happened then how trustworthy would any analysis be?

Edited April 12, 2020 by John Butler

[David Andrews]

The figures here look like cut outs.  How easy would it be to fake this scene?

 The motorcade was probably filmed from the first and second floor of buildings all along the motorcade route.  There would be plenty of film available for replacement scenes if mobile TV cameras were used that would transmit the data back to a central location.  Say, such as a big truck parked at the Dal-Tex or some other location along the route.

 

It's not the same angle if filmed from behind the limo, and any aerial imaging paste-ins wouldn't match.  There are back threads here that speculate on photos of the concrete pavilion at the NW end of the pergola (i. e., behind Zapruder), saying there are men filming from inside.  Some of those threads discussed the Hesters, a couple with alleged Dallas film community connections, who dropped to the grass in front of the pergola during the head shot moments - so use Hester or pergola as a search term.  I hope the photos are still up, because they're not often seen elsewhere.

Myself, I have always believed that Connally was wounded in the back while he was turned to look back at Kennedy, and that he does not suffer a delayed reaction then to an earlier hit.  That makes the South Knoll a prime candidate for origin.  Getting broadsided like that suggests that it wasn't accidental and that he was the target for that shot, whether authorized or not.

It's more difficult for me to accept that Z-313 is a left temple, or right temple, hit on JFK from the South Knoll, as Jackie's head and face are obscuring JFK's left  to the south at that moment, and are too close for a sniper taking a right temple shot from center east, unless he was excellent at leading a target and fired before Jackie's head came as close as it finally got to JFK's face.

Edited April 12, 2020 by David Andrews

[Chris Davidson]

On 4/11/2020 at 8:07 AM, Gary Murr said:

Hi Jim:

Apologies for not responding sooner to your question, but I did not see it until this morning. In essence what you have deduced as a result of looking at my chapter 18 is correct. I am arguing that as of the date of this the first in a series of lengthy sessions with the Zapruder, January 27, 1964, WC counsels Ball, Belin, Eisenberg and Redlich are of the opinion that Connally may have been wounded in a time span encompassing “frames 56 thru 73”, the Frederick Webb based Z film numbering system. What I believe I have shown in this chapter is that when one couples the Webb numbering system with the Shaneyfelt drawings, and interpret this information in terms of the eventually accepted “official” Shaneyfelt Z film numbering system, one arrives at a WC staff time frame for the potential wounding of John Connally that encompasses Z280 to Z297. At this moment in time, late January, 1964 this hypothesis was, I feel, acceptable to these same members of the WC staff. However, what was unknown to them was a factor forthcoming that would generate, in part, the necessity of the single bullet theory. And that factor was the time necessary to fire consecutive shots from the alleged weapon of the assassination, the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSBD.

As you are probably aware, marksmen utilized in “speed” testing to operate the manual bolt action of the Carcano generated an accepted time frame of 2.6 seconds [average] between shots, a physical action that did not include the factor of aiming. But putting that aside, when one takes this time frame and equates it to the accepted Z film fps speed one is left with the fact that 47 frames of Zapruder film will “pass” thru the camera before the next shot can be fired [47.58 frames to be precise – 2.6 X 18.3 = 47.58].  If the WC and its staff were to accept the operational factor of an average of 2.6 seconds between shots, which they were willing to do, then what does this mean for the wounding of John Connally as surmised by members of the WC staff in late January of 1964? Quite simply if accepted it would have necessitated a second shooter because; taking the “low” end of the WC staff Connally wounding time span of frame 56/Z280 + 47 frames = Z327; taking the “high” end of the WC staff wounding time span of frame 73/Z297 + 47 frames = Z344. Or put in simpler terms, as of January 27, 1964 members of the WC staff have arrived at a Connally wounding time frame that encompasses Z327 thru Z344 – sheer poison because it is uncontested that JFK is fatally hit at Z313. And whether one accepts a Connally “hit” at Z327 or as late as Z344, neither scenario allows enough frame time to operate the alleged weapon of the assassination to fire the “second” shot that impacted, in the WC staff time frame – i.e. Z327 – Z313 = 14 z frames or Z344 – Z313 = 31Z frames, both falling short of the needed 47Z frames to reload.

Hopefully this makes sense…

Gary,

 

 

Gary,

Nicely stated.

Your second paragraph aligns quite well with Charles Brehm's FBI statement if one sets aside the Stemmons sign shot/s temporarily.

Excerpts from Brehm's FBI statement: My comments are in the parenthesis.

When the President's automobile was very close to him(find Brehm in the background of the extant zilm - what frame numbers) and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward (Stemmons shot/s have already occurred)   when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot(Shot1 circa z280 whether or not it hit someone is less important than realizing all the passengers have reacted to an external stimulus-watch their heads from the previous gif supplied). According to BREHM, the President seemed do to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot(Shot2-head shot z313) sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together(Too close for one person to fire all three shots). BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle,(Brehm knew they were close together - the powers that be knew their wasn't enough time for a lone shooter).  take aim, and fire three shots.

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet(plotted extant z301-z313- the limo travels 7.2ft) . It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt(overall total makes sense if the limo within the zfilm traveled approx 3 - 5ft from circa z280-z301) after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot(the one after the extant z313 head shot), the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

Stemmon's shots same situation as above(multiple(2) shots - not enough time for one shooter). imo

 

 

 

[Chris Bristow]

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

I had to look at the Z 280 frame to see what you were talking about.  Exactly.  The South Knoll would be the place if Connally was shot at Z280 and not at about Z225 when Kennedy is first shot according to Zapruder.   The shot would have to narrowly miss Nellie.  That is about the only reasonable suggestion that I have heard for shooting from the South Knoll.

The figures here look like cut outs.  How easy would it be to fake this scene?

Could use something like this?  I'm not much of a computer artist, but this would be better done by a professional film editor.  All you would have to do is fill in the appropriate film scene from another film or from an earlier part of the film such as the Zapruder Gap.  If you just stuck to doing this then editing the whole film would not take that long for a team of film editors.  The motorcade was probably filmed from the first and second floor of buildings all along the motorcade route.  There would be plenty of film available for replacement scenes if mobile TV cameras were used that would transmit the data back to a central location.  Say, such as a big truck parked at the Dal-Tex or some other location along the route.

If anything like this happened then how trustworthy would any analysis be?

Every time someone talks about the head shot I have to ask myself, is this even real? How can we confidently discuss it? So ya it could be faked but you can't add images from much earlier in the film because the shadows, reflections, angle and definition of the image constantly change. You can't add film that was taken from a very different vantage point. I think Z's pedestal is the only place you could get footage to be used in the Z film. I wonder if  video cameras in 63 could  provide a clear enough image to be mixed together with film? They were just starting to uses trucks to lug around the  equipment needed to send the video back to the station were it could be recorded.
   I think to fake the Z film you could use elements from the film and just juggle them around but there would be limits. Like maybe you could use a limo image from several frames prior but you can't go too far before everything changes. Like all the reflections in the trunk of the limo match the position of the limo. I have always been baffled at how they could fake it but at the same time I think they must have at least removed the limo stop and the head blowout. Although Costella's issue of the Stemmons pincushion distortion is convincing too
After the assassination the plaza was closed off one day so they could survey it and whatever else. They could have used Zapruders camera to re film the background at the same time of day and used that as part of their fabrication. I guess they could have even used the limo and filmed it moving down Elm
Advertising firms in the day could cut and past someone in or out of a still photo. They can construct a scene with people at a beach and it looked perfect if they were careful. On the other hand many of the celebs currently taping from home are accused of using green screen. but when you light a person outdoors they can often look so different from the background in terms of light temperature and such that it looks phony. That does not directly related to the Z film of course but is interesting to note regarding how our brains interrupt what we see.

[David Josephs]

Wanted to add this visual... Actual measurements within Gauthier's model based on the info provided in WCD298.

There is a lot of contradictory info in this one image....  Part of the measurements was the distance from Zapruder to JFK...

Here's a bit more detail into what was done to hide as much as possible.  As Chris says... creating one shot from 2...
(and it stands to reason if the shooters where radio connected... a "fire" command would be carried out by all shooters simultaneously... making many shots sound like fewer.)

 

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

I'd also note that radio is not necessary to coordinate the shooting, it would be routine for any trained team to coordinate simply by position of the target - not that I think they were intent on disguising multiple shooters but "volley fire" is simply a more effective shooting tactic. Given the fairly restricted firing area three to four volleys would be very much in line.  And if anything a physical signal - as with the umbrella - would most likely be a control over the overall attack.  Umbrella up, its on, shoot per plan.  Umbrella down - abort.

Just speculating but there are some pretty standard infantry guide lines for ambush type attacks...including where  you stage blocking points and diversions.

[David G. Healy]

On 4/14/2020 at 7:54 AM, Larry Hancock said:

...

Just speculating but there are some pretty standard infantry guide lines for ambush type attacks...including where  you stage blocking points and diversions.

for instance, Larry:

https://sites.psu.edu/cxd5132/wp-content/uploads/sites/25797/2015/04/Instruction-Set.pdf

it was pretty much the same 50 years ago... the deviation here is: not everyone (presidential limo & SS vehicle occupants) in that zone was a target. Why? Nor was there an attempt made to kill all in the zone.

Edited April 15, 2020 by David G. Healy

[Larry Hancock]

Actually I reference that source as well as  a couple of other similar ones in my upcoming monograph - good choice.  Perhaps a better choice of words on my part would have been to use "point of attack" rather than kill zone.  There are are many types of paramilitary assaults which target only specific vehicles in a convoy or for that matter specific vehicles in a processions.  In some instances the goal is to take captives, with minimal casualties.  It all depends upon the objective - the overall tactical approach remains the same (for example multiple firing points depending on the weapons used) but the targeting changes with the objective.  The objective in Dallas was to ensure a single individual died...whether or not there were back up plans that would have more dramatically expanded the targeting (say an IED) or attacks at different locations is a matter of speculation but would not be uncommon in an assault plan.

[Robert Montenegro]

deleted by author

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Robert Montenegro

[Larry Hancock]

A couple of guys that went to work for Werbell in the years after the assassination very likely knew a good bit about what happened in Dallas...as to the rifles themselves,  anything on my part would be pure guesswork - I have heard the guys involved were well pleased and proud of their achievement so claiming trophies would not be inconsistent. 

What we do know is that the weapons given for use in the sniper attacks planned against Castro in Cuba were high quality sporting rifles with telescopic sights.  And those assaults involved one to two shooters in a very well scripted attack, one where the range was known in advance so the rifles sights could be appropriately sighted in advance. Generally speaking those rifles were in the same class as the type and caliber weapon two men tried to buy from Robert McKewon in Houston shortly before the assassination but failed. 

From what I've seen the rifles used would have been quality sporting/game rifles not military weapons - which would be much better for infiltration and for that matter for recovering afterwards - standard practice being to hide the weapons locally and let someone else recover it well after the fact so as to make exfiltration easier.

[Ron Bulman]

Somebody else first posted about it but I've wondered about something like this since they did.  Both the military and cia had the capability to make their own.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=de+lisle+carbine&docid=607986091104601971&mid=1DE85D145926B2B83FA61DE85D145926B2B83FA6&view=detail&FORM=VIRE