Charles Blackmon Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 10 hours ago, Tom Gram said: if it really was some shock-driven act of evidence tampering stupidity and he was worried about getting in trouble he could have asked the HSCA to grant him immunity or something. Before you judge this man's actions you really need to try and put yourself in his shoes post- Nov 22, 1963. If he knew he did something wrong (evidence tampering) then that would be a perilous situation for him. One option was to stay quiet. There are probably dozens of JFKA witnesses who decided to "stay quiet" for fear of repercussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Blackmon Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 6 hours ago, Pat Speer said: I think that K and K or some other website should create a tally board, with a list of 20 or so issues, along with the current feelings of the most prominent researchers on these issues. This would be of help to the media in cases like this one. Excellent idea!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K K Lane Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Reposting this summary from my "timeline thread": Five key areas of evolving views: Shot count. Landis said two shots in November 1963 which he repeated at least through 1983. At some point he started saying three shots which is his current view. Found fragment. Landis said nothing about a found fragment in the limo in his 1963 reports. By 1983 he mentions finding a fragment in the limo; he reiterates that in 2010, and in 2023 the fragment has become a whole bullet - slightly deformed. Disposition of bullet/fragment. In 1983, Landis claimed he gave the bullet fragment to somebody. In 2010, Landis claimed he put the bullet fragment on the limo seat. In 2023 he claims he put the whole bullet on a stretcher. Shots from the grassy knoll. Landis identified the head shot as coming from the grassy knoll starting in 1963. He persisted in that belief for four decades or so but now claims that there was no grassy knoll shot. CT. Landis seems to have opposed the idea of a conspiracy initially and up until very recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Seems pretty simple, straightforward book marketing at its finest. Doesn't matter what he's said all along - you think anyone but us even has a clue? - by questioning the SBT he almost guarantees a best-seller. Worse yet, despite scientific impossibility, Landis' words will be taken seriously and confuse those looking into the case for years to come. {sigh}. The man blew off his primary responsibilities, got plowed until 5am and NOW wants to come clean with a best selling book and more confusion about the facts of the case. Red card! @Vince Palamara Hope you don't mind but found this in my stuff... not sure if all this remains the same today for you yet this was a great recap... thanks! The Secret Service and CE 399 by Vincent Michael Palamara The following is a compendium of all the anomolies pertaining to what I like to refer to as the "legitimacy" of CE399, including the Secret Service's handling of it: [in no particular order] 1) CE2011-O.P. Wright, Darrel Tomlinson, Chief James J. Rowley, and SA Richard Johnsen could NOT identify CE399 as the bullet they all allegedly handled on 11/22/63 ("over-the-counter" references: "JFK-Conspiracy of Silence", p. 133; "Crossfire", p. 365; "Reasonable Doubt", p. 70); 2) 24H412-Although two FBI agents (Todd and Frazier) initialed the bullet they received from the Secret Service, Johnsen and Rowley did NOT, breaking the legal chain of custody; 3) CD7-Although the bullet was "officially" found on a stretcher in a corridor of Parkland Hospital, the FBI(Sibert and O'Neil) reported that it was found in the emergency room!; 4) a)Sibert and O'Neil interview of SAIC Jerry Behn, 11/27/63-the same FBI agents bypassed Johnsen and spoke instead to Behn(not even IN Dallas) about "the location of a bullet which had been found on a stretcher at Parkland"; 4) b) RIF#180-10104-10481:HSCA interview of SAIC Behn- Incredibly, Behn "stated that he was in the chain of custody of CE 399-Behn received the bullet from Johnsen, then turned it over to the FBI" [DJ: Johnsen gives it to ROWLEY who gives it to TODD who gives it to FRAZIER, no BEHN]; 5) Price Exhibits, Warren Commission Volume XXI - O.P. Wright, the man who allegedly gave the bullet to Johnsen at Parkland, does not even MENTION this very important find at all in his report(?!); 6) Darrel Tomlinson, O.P. Wright, Nathan Pool-all described a DIFFERENT bullet than CE399(pointed, hunting-type)["Six Seconds in Dallas"; "High Treason", p. 102; HSCA document-interview with Nathan Pool, 1/10/77; etc.]. According to research done by Josiah Thompson, the bullet was found on a stretcher used by a young boy named Ronny Fuller!; 7) LBJ Library document-Memorandum to File-According to Chief James J. Rowley, CE399 "was found amongst the clothes on one of the stretchers." If that wasn't enough, Governor Connally stated in his autobiography called "In History's Shadow"," But the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell onto the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the BULLET FROM MY BODY, the one that passed through my back, chest, and wrist, and worked itself loose from my thigh" (emphasis added-p.18; "The Investigator" Feb-May 1994). Corroborating Connally's memory, from the 11/21/93 Dallas Morning News interview with Henry Wade:" I also went out to see Connally, but he was in the operating room(note the time frame). Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on...I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet" ("The Investigator" Feb-May 1994). Finally, Gary Shaw (in the 11/22/93 "Dateline: Dallas" issue) came across this passage from the Warren Commission testimony of Parkland nurse Jeanette Standridge: Specter: "Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?" Standridge:"Not unusual" Specter:" Did you notice a bullet, specifically?" Standridge:"No" Specter:" Did you hear the sound of anything fall?" Standridge:"I didn't" Is THIS "CE399"? What's going on here? 😎 Bill Greer-Although it is an "official" fact that Agent Richard Johnsen gained possession of CE399 (a.k.a. "the magic bullet," linked to Oswald's gun) via O.P. Wright (who obtained it thru Darrel Tomlinson AND Nathan Pool, who obtained it in the PRESENCE of Secret Service agent[s]) at Parkland Hospital, what has never been widely reported is the fact that Agent Greer maintained VERY close proximity to Johnsen and the bullet in question (18H799-800): a) BOTH agents guarded the emergency room(Trauma Room 1)-Greer inside, Johnsen outside(2H126; 18H798); b) IF the FBI's report is accurate(see # 3[CD7] above), Greer was the ONLY agent stationed inside the emergency room with JFK; c)Johnsen rode with Greer in a car on the way to Air Force One (along with fellow agents David Grant, Samuel Sulliman, Ernest Olsson, and Paul Landis)-and we're supposed to believe that ALL these agents remained silent about the bullet!(18H799; 18H723); d)Greer rode with Johnsen near the casket in the REAR of Air Force One(from the point of time starting with the swearing in of LBJ, when the MAJORITY of agents/people were up front[18H799; 2H126))... When we consider that both Greer AND Kellerman remained silent about this bullet until it was announced by Chief Rowley that night during the autopsy (via a phone call TO Kellerman!), we have to wonder about the implications of this "silence"-- in a recently uncovered HSCA document, Roy Kellerman stated that SA Johnsen told him about the bullet while they were still at PARKLAND(HSCA document, interviews with Kellerman, outside contact report, 8/24-8/25/77)!!!! This early knowledge is troubling because of the following: Once the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital was underway, Greer "said that a bullet had been found on a stretcher-or rather as it fell from a stretcher- in Parkland Hospital...could this be the bullet that went INTO THE NECK and, in the jostling of the President on the stretcher, FELL OUT?" As author Jim Bishop reported (thru his interview with Greer [and Kellerman])," GREER's THESIS had a supporter. Roy Kellerman ... said he remembered a Parkland doctor astride the chest of the dead President, applying artificial respiration. Kellerman...thought the bullet in the BACK...might have been squeezed out by manual pressure..."("The Day Kennedy was Shot", page 498,530; see also Tomlinson-2H412; Greer-2H127; Kellerman-2H93)! Why would they even need Rowley's call to "alert" them to the bullet found at Parkland and given to the FBI (two agents -- Sibert and O'Neil -- were in attendance with Greer and Kellerman at the autopsy)? Why would Rowley "order" Kellerman to tell the autopsy doctors about something he already knew about? It gets better (or worse, depending on which way you see it)... 9) During an interview conducted on 9/29/92, the author learned that Agent Richard Johnsen DID NOT REMEMBER having possession of CE399!?!? ("The Third Alternative-Survivor's Guilt:the Secret Service and the JFK Murder", p. 43-see also pages 30,31,52,53, and 65;"The Investigator" Dec '93/Jan '94-article by author). Furthermore, Johnsen mentions in his first report that the bullet, quote, "may" have originated from Governor Connally's stretcher -- obviously, one of the components of the "single bullet theory" is having the bullet on Connally's stretcher; if the bullet was found on JFK's stretcher (or Ronny Fuller's, or elsewhere), the theory is in big trouble. Interestingly, Johnsen retired in 1979, having never been questioned by the FBI, the Warren Commission, or the HSCA, and when I tried, I received very cantankerous responses(it was the day after contacting Johnsen that I received the infamous call from the Executive Secretary of the Former Agents of the Secret Service, "Percy" Hamilton Brown, telling me very angrily to "cease and desist from contacting any more of my associates...I gave you no authority to do so." As former agent Bob Lilly told me, "Who died and made him boss?!" Sam Kinney told me, "Hey, it's a free country!"). As for Johnsen's "second" report, a sort of mini-report enclosed with his first report having to do with the acquisition of CE399, it is UNSIGNED. (18H799-800;this report actually exists seperately, as new documents uncovered from the LBJ Library reveal, although the same report as reproduced in the Warren Commission Volumes gives the impression it is part of the same[first] report, due to its juxtoposition on TOP of the first report). There may be more to Johnsen's present "amnesia" over this evidence than meets the eye... 10) CBS' Eddie Barker [whose son is a Secret Service agent!] interview of O.P. Wright ("Postmortem", p. 46)-"...I got hold of a Secret Service man and THEY[sic?] didn't seem to be interested in coming and looking at the bullet in the position it was in then. So I went back to the area where Mr. Tomlinson was and picked up the bullet and put it in my pocket, and I carried it some 30 or 40 minutes. And I gave it to a Secret Service man that was guarding the main door into the emergency room..."Who was the first agent Wright spoke to? And was his use of the word "they" a mistake? NO... HSCA attorney Belford V. Lawson*, in charge of the Secret Service area of the "investigation," is the author of a recently uncovered memo in regard to an interview with Nathan Pool conducted on 1/10/77 and headlined "POOL's CO-DISCOVERY OF THE 'TOMLINSON' BULLET." In the memo, Pool mentions the fact that TWO Secret Service agents were by the elevator, one of which " remained there throughout most or all of Pool's stay". Before we can catch our breath, a THIRD Secret Service agent enters the picture; although all these men were in the immediate vicinity of the discovery of the bullet, one particular agent "was within 10 feet when Pool recognized the bullet". According to Pool, the bullet was pointed, and he added that it "didn't look like it had hit anything and didn't look like it had been in anything". Lawson felt that further development of Pool's testimony may reveal the following: QUOTE: "A SECRET SERVICE AGENT WAS FOR A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE ELEVATOR TO PLANT A BULLET; MAY LEAD TO AN IDENTIFICATION OF THAT AGENT..." And you thought only "assassination buffs" came up with compelling assertions... *a former adviser to JFK on civil rights; a D.C. political figure; any relation to WINSTON G. LAWSON, in charge of the advance security in Dallas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Griffith Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 (edited) It is very easy to understand why Landis did not reveal that he found a bullet embedded in the limo's back seat: Obviously, that bullet was fired from the front, not from behind. It could not have been fired from the alleged sniper's nest, or from any other point behind the limo, and then made a magical U-turn to embed itself in the back seat. It came from a point in front of the limo. As we all know, literally within two hours of the shooting, if not sooner, the TV and radio airwaves were flooded with references to a single shooter who fired from behind the limo. Virtually all news reports spoke of a single shooter and a single suspect, Oswald. Landis would have caused an enormous firestorm if he had revealed that he had found a bullet lodged in the back seat of the limo. Landis undoubtedly realized this and chose to stay silent about it. Edited September 11, 2023 by Michael Griffith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence Schnapf Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Let's tease this apart. 1. we only have news articles with selected excertps. Mr. Landis will be speaking at the Wecht institute on November 15th where we will have opportunity to ask questions. Until then, any attacks of his story or pronouncements that the SBT are premature and simply knee-jerk reaction. As a former secret service agent, i think we need to treat him with respect until such time that we have the chance to examine his story. 2. it is quite possible that Clint Hill did not see a bullet that may have been under or stuck between the bodies of JFK and Jackie. Hill never examined the backseat after the president was removed and he helped Jackie out of the car. 3. The NYT piece says that Hill cautioned Landis from writing his book because of "implications". Would be interesting if he was referring to personal implications or bigger picture implications. Not surprisingly, Hill went on NBC last night to discredit the story, Dr. James Young said in his oral history of the Naval Medical Bureau Office of History in 2001 that a mishapened bullet was found by corpsmen that were sent to the limo to retrieve skull fragments during the autopsy at the request of Boswell so they could try to reconstruct the president's head. Young said a an envelope with the bullet was sent to Boswell. this bullet has been lost to history. 4. A Mr. Louck claimed some years ago that his former neighbor, Sam Kinney (the backup car vehicle), told Louck that HE had found a bullet in the front carpet of the limo and HE was the one who placed it on the gurney. After I interviewed him several times (more like a"soft" cross-examination), I found his account not credible. But the idea that any secret service agent would tamper with evidence to a murder is just incredible. I would like to know if Mr, Landis was aware of this account. 5. Mr. Landis' November 30th statement is interesting because he said he scanned the windows and roofs while riding in the backup car. when they turned onto Houston street, he reports that he looked at a building that had to be the TSBD and said all windows were closed and no one was in the windows! He also says he believes the head shot was from the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K K Lane Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Discussion of Landis' claim on this forum have been predominantly analytical and respectful. Posner's substack was essentially a hit-piece and Clint Hill's reaction is, of course, tendentious. My questions for Landis include: Please distinguish the bullet you are now referring to compared to the bullet fragment that since 1983 you've claimed you found in the limo. Are these "bullets" the same? Is the new bullet in addition to the bullet fragments? Does the whole bullet you now recall finding in the limo physically resemble CE399? Please explain your thinking in November 1963 for not reporting this found bullet in your written reports. Was there explicity or implicit pressure to express or not express certain viewpoints? What form did that pressure come in? Are there additional unspoken revelations that you're aware of from your SS peers? When did you first tell another person about the whole bullet you now report having found in the limo? What is the oldest written document or letter that references this 2023 found bullet? Please share your thoughts on the propriety of a SS agent not including a found bullet in your post-assassination report. Was evidence chain of custody part of your SS training? Do you have a sense of the historic importance of what you are now revealing? Personally, I'd like Vince to get "the interview" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 A follower of K and K left me this quote from long ago which VInce P should recall. It took me a while to find it again but I knew I had written the quote in the comments section. Entitled "First Annual Midwest Symposium on JFK part 3 6/26 - 6/28/92 Chicago, Illinois " from Vince Palamara YouTube channel. "During the last days of the public hearings of the House Select Committee, Congressman, now Senator Dodd, gave the most important revelation. He stood up or sat up and asked Professor Blakely to answer him one question. And he said, Mr. Blakely, will you please explain to me about the bullet that was found in the President's limousine that cannot be ballistically matched to the Oswald weapon? Congressman Dodd never received an answer....to this day." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Mileto Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 This is from Robert Groden's report to the HSCA: The Washington Post of December 18, 1963, after checking the report with the FBI before publication, stated that a bullet was recov- ered from deep within the President’s shoulder. This was again con- firmed in the Post on May 29, 1966. The fact of the recovery of this bullet fully destroys the myth of the “single bullet,” and that evidence of an additional gunshot during the assassination was suppressed. Does anybody have this Washington Post article from May 29, 1966? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Landis will be at Cyril Wecht's Conference in November. Up Close and Personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K K Lane Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Breaking Points gets into the weeds on thie Landis revelation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUTXRRLSxIg Key points: Saagar gives credit to Oliver Stone for turning the tide on JFKA. Saagar specifically mentions JFK revisited (sorry, Jim, no hat tip to you in this segment) Jeff Morley's substack got a shout-out as well. I can't believe Saagar and Krystal were drilling down to a discussion of which gurney the bullet was found on. And they actually covered Darrell Tomlinson's role! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leslie Sharp Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 (edited) I'm dismayed that in their enthusiasm — and regardless of how significant a smoking bullet is to the investigation — David Talbot and Jefferson Morley seem to have failed (thus far) to publicly acknowledge the fundamental issues with Landis's personal story. I'm even more dismayed that NYT, The Guardian, The Independent, Vanity Fair have inexplicably leapt over basic precepts of investigative journalism to publish sensational headlines, "witness breaks his silence and raises new questions" which leads me to consider a fellow researcher's concerns (paraphrasing): is this a limited hangout? If SS agents weren't trained in the fundamentals of crime scene preservation, evidence gathering and reporting, weren't they at least vetted for common sense? Why then would Landis remove evidence from a crime scene (limo) and relocate it to a stretcher instead of handing it off to his superior or at the very least local authorities? Why didn't he mark the bullet? Why didn't he record his finding in a report? Did PTSD impede him from fulfilling his oath to support and defend democracy for decades? How could he avoid the WCR and Specter's "magic bullet" theory for decades? Did he state as late as 2013 that he believed a lone gunman was responsible for Kennedy's assassination? Did the trauma overwhelm him for six decades? In his own words published by alt-right The Gateway Pundit which headlines Robert Kennedy Jr's reaction, Landis goes unchallenged when he states: "There was nobody there to secure the scene, and that was a big, big bother to me. All the agents that were there were focused on the president." So, Landis was concerned that the scene hadn't been secured yet he himself lifted a bullet from the limo, took it inside the building, placed it on a stretcher, and never reported it or spoke of it publicly again until the 60th anniversary ... not the 45th, or 55th, or 57th, or 59th, but the 60th. If leading spokespersons for "the community" fail to address the most basic questions, how long before conspiracy skeptics add this episode to the list? https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/09/jfk-assassination-witness-breaks-60-year-silence-blows/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=jfk-assassination-witness-breaks-60-year-silence-blows Edited September 11, 2023 by Leslie Sharp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 On 9/9/2023 at 8:59 PM, Benjamin Cole said: I posted a link to story, and you can use link to read story in Wayback Machine/Internet Archives. I posted the story as well. Of course, whether you give credence to Landis' testimony depends on whether you are a CT'er or LN'er. 1. Landis' explanation is that CE 399 is a projectile that made the shallow wound in JFK's back, and then fell out. 2. The WC version is that CE 399 is a projectile that passed through JFK's neck, did not tumble, then struck JBC cleanly, took out four inches of JBC's rib, exited JBC's chest tearing out of four-square-inch-hole (lots of bone exited), then smashed JBC's wrist, and then entered JBC's thigh, and then fell out onto a stretcher in Parkland. And after being struck by said projectile, JBC made a 180-degree turn in this seat to look for JFK. Maybe Landis' version stands up better.... Oh, and btw, CE 399 has marginal deformation after doing all that damage.... "1. Landis' explanation is that CE 399 is a projectile that made the shallow wound in JFK's back, and then fell out." There is no chance that a bullet struck Kennedy in the back and penetrated only to such a shallow depth that it could later simply fall out of the entry wound. Complete nonsense. Whatever did occur, it wasn't this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K K Lane Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Posner is peddling his nonsense on NewsNation right now. It's amazing how Posner can frame Landis' 1963 testimony as either absolute truth or nonsense depending on whether it fits Posner's narrative. NewsNation looks like they were prepped to be pro-Posner. Mockingbird v3? FWIW Landis is scheduled to give an interview on NewsNation on Wednseday. It would be nice if they could get some balanced background info by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ulrik Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, Bill Brown said: "1. Landis' explanation is that CE 399 is a projectile that made the shallow wound in JFK's back, and then fell out." There is no chance that a bullet struck Kennedy in the back and penetrated only to such a shallow depth that it could later simply fall out of the entry wound. Complete nonsense. Whatever did occur, it wasn't this. It's even worse than that. The bullet would also have had to work its way out through the shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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