David Andrews

There's a photo of Angleton carrying Dulles's ashes out of the chapel after the ceremony - the sole pallbearer. Clover Dulles was perhaps the most critical. She locked Dulles's bedroom door and threw a party while he was dying - suffocating from pneumonia, if I recall. Concerned Agency types at the party broke open the door and called an ambulance. Clover later died in an old age home. I wonder what the intervening years were like for her.

Jim DiEugenio, what was Kennedy's first, uninfluenced reaction to the idea of a covert invasion of Cuba? Were there any recorded statements?

It's a free download now, including the CD of documents. Look for an older post from B. A. Copeland that has the links. Look for my post complaining that I couldn't download them with Windows XP (I got them later on another OS). +++ The actual answer, of course, is that there is no "Lee" and never was Lance, if you do some fact checking, there are irreconcilable discrepancies with the Oswald family's living addresses, with Marguerite Oswald's employment records, and with Oswald's conflicting service records. The FBI displayed quite an interest in quashing duplicate school records. John Pic, in his WC testimony, challenged facts and photos presented him. Something was up, if not everything posited. It might be one thing to assume that Oswald's tax returns are classified because he did work for FBI and CIA. But why are Marguerite's classified? One answer for both is that employment records for "mother" and "son" would reveal too many lacunae and lead to unexplained duplicate histories.

Helms is obviously covering for General Walker, mastermind of two hemispheres. No, wait - I meant David Rockefeller.

Watch the beginning. He's like a kid smiling through the outrageousness of his lies. We've all done it - you have to work to put a straight face back on regardless of your own absurdities.

Posting at work (PAW) - wrong decade. "You are correct, sir!"

Nagell's 1967 prison letter to Arthur Greenstein ("Arturo Verdestein") puts Oswald firmly in the patsy category, and an apparent pawn of David Ferrie. But how much Mark Lane-Jim Garrison-style research had filtered through to him by this time? Was he parroting the new party line for his own benefit? There have been suggestions along the way that Nagell, once out of prison, was induced to contact Garrison. One thing about Nagell: his war and espionage experiences led him to oppose authority through comic absurdity and tricksterism - which makes him an attractive character (almost a 1960s-film antihero), but also frustrating to deal with research-wise. Somebody didn't like him; he ended up taking a beating in his last weeks and then dying suspiciously before HSCA could get to him. But there were a lot of Somebodies with conflicting agendas around him.

Nagell initially thought he was being tasked to look into Oswald by someone with CIA connections but later determined that person to be a double actually working for the Russians and believed that he had been compromised and that for a span of time at least could have been charged as working for a foreign power. Given the further circumstances of the case, which Larry ably and briefly outlines in his post. you have to wonder how much of Nagell's worries about being "compromised" (and open to blackmail by the KGB, forcing him to consider killing Oswald for them) would really stand up in the eyes of US intelligence as something that would be held against Nagell. Or were "we" blackmailing him too, on this account? One of the problems of the Russell book is that we never understand who Lee Harvey Oswald was and who was really running him, and for what purposes. Russell, being closest to the Nagell case, could do a great service by writing a article defining Oswald as completely as possible from Nagell's understanding (as much as Nagell revealed this). P. S. - The court-appointed attorneys who finally represented Nagell in the original bank robbery trial and for later appeals were Joseph A. Calamia and Gus Rallis. Nagell had previously dismissed other court-appointed attorneys.

However, since 2009, until now, this thread has produced zero advanced knowledge about the thread topic. Perhaps because nobody gives a fig for George Lazenby. Harrumph!

Bill Shelley, who was his handler in front of the New Orleans Trade Mart, could have kept him from emerging from the shadows, perhaps only by power of suggestion because he himself, and Frazier, and for the most part Lovelady, didn't go down to the street. Time to start thinking about why we see Shelley so close to Oswald twice. I don't believe for a second that that's Beckham with Oswald by the Trade Mart. Michael: it's follow-the-leader. Shelley stayed in the alcove, so the others did, too. Shelley probably went out to keep Oz from straying. It hardly matters though: any evidence would have been suppressed, and - as others, including B. A. Copeland, have maintained - Oswald may have been the main focus for a scenario, but his may not have been the only scenario. The main thing was killing JFK.

Bill Shelley, who was his handler in front of the New Orleans Trade Mart, could have kept him from emerging from the shadows.

Oz had boss Bill Shelley beside him in the TSBD entrance alcove, for babysitting purposes. Plus the similar-looking, similarly dressed guy for deception. Plus the guy who claimed he brought curtain rods to work. Then the boss and the similarly-dressed guy took off down the street, figuring he'd be shot inside within minutes. Later the big boss and the motor cop made up the lunchroom story to alibi the DPD for not finding Oz and shooting him. The point may have been to have Oz in a definite place during the shooting, then to abandon him to the DPD, which failed to respond en force and take him out. Oz may have smelled the wind of all this afterward and left the TSBD. Nobody would have cared about a few witnesses on the steps, whose names would be lost to history for 30 years - and, de facto the MSM, still are lost. Witnesses can be discounted, or bribed, or threatened, or worse. Who would stick up for the Marxist defector too dumb to call in sick that day, or who was ordered to attend? Nobody surrounding Oz on the steps stayed by him to alibi him, or spoke up for him afterward. Not Bill Shelley, who was babysitting him earlier in front of the New Orleans Trade Mart. Maybe Bill Shelley bought him that Coke. Is that what Prayer Man's holding - later becoming a meme in the lunchroom fabrication?

Why were the pilot car and the lead motorcycles so far ahead of the limo on Elm Street, when they had already negotiated the turns onto Houston and Elm, and the pilot car driver could predict that the limo would be somewhat held up? (This is a rhetorical question, since bullets were involved, but the issue is seldom commented on.)

I'd believe the wrist/throat thing if Connally had been hit in the left wrist, but it seems to me that he's swatting with his hat, pointlessly and irrationally, at a very near miss that buzzed past him on his left, hitting Kennedy. What kind of Texan was Connally? A stump politician used to swatting at insects with that hat. It was muscle memory, as if he'd been surprised by a big, nasty bee. Get outta my car, you! He can't make that motion or hang onto his hat with a broken right wrist. Plus his attention would be focused in that direction. I think he's sensed that there was a previous shot into the limo interior, and the near-miss has proved it for him.

Delete, please.

George Plimpton, Paris Review, and the CIA: https://www.salon.com/2012/05/27/exclusive_the_paris_review_the_cold_war_and_the_cia/ also: https://medium.com/bomb-magazine/uncovering-the-cias-covert-funding-of-american-literary-journals-4a0ec9782567 https://www.theawl.com/2015/08/literary-magazines-for-socialists-funded-by-the-cia-ranked/ One thing you can say about those heady days of the 1950s through the 1970s is that, while the CIA was torturing and murdering the literati of South America and elsewhere, it was studiously exporting our literary product and supporting our writers and editors. And that's a better shake than Americans get nowadays. Hats off to our book-readin' CIA of old.

"I think we'll bring him around" [...]"After all, the guy's not a nut, he's a Harvard man." Reminds me of another story. Except that one ended like Carl Mays vs. Ray Chapman.

I believe CIA was floated to Bobby because it was felt that there would be accusations of nepotism had he accepted attorney-general with so little practical legal experience.

Barry Krusch is Mossad?

Is it possible to separate the degrees and duration of anti-Communism ("Cold Warrior") in Kennedy from those of anti-colonialism? The latter ideals are part of the Roosevelt strain in the Democratic Party, and would have been opposed by the same Western corporatists who would have opposed Roosevelt in these matters had he lived into the post-war world. (Except perhaps the imperative of stripping England of her Eastern colonies, to make them fair game for exploitation by the rest of the capitalist world, and make the US the only economic superpower for a time.) Of course, Kennedy was his own man and was influenced by experts such as Gullion and by persisting and changing conditions in the third world. The issues of anti-Communism and anti-colonialism would obviously intertwine in Kennedy's administration and in the worldviews of business and government. But even when they do, Kennedy's attitudes toward each should be considered.

That Simkin thread can't be the only Bowers thread in the back numbers.

Re: denial on the day of 9/11 - It's amazing how fast cynicism and denial leapt over the dead. Took at least a month for people outside of government in the Kennedy thing.

So much of Sahl's experience applicable to the behavior following 9/11. Following? On the same day.

I know. There's a lot of Lee Bowers material in the Forum back threads (when I was young). You missed the saga of Lee Bowers' thumb - was it stepped on, or was he tortured? We'll never know. Among the suspicious vehicles in the parking lot was, allegedly, the Honest Joe's Pawn Shop van with its enormous fake revolver on the roof. There was once a picture posted here where you could see the van roof behind the stockade fence near the pergola. Hey - what better to conceal rifle action than a gun truck? There's more than just this thread: Here's something I just found: http://alt.conspiracy.jfk.narkive.com/tJPjMOsg/honest-joe-s-pawn-shop-truck

See Florida schools and terrorist visas.