Oliver Stone and Judyth Baker

[Anthony Thorne]

Rob - who cares how much SNOWDEN made theatrically? First you tell us it didn’t get a cinema release. Now you concede that it actually did but it’s problematic that it didn’t sell more cinema tickets. I’m sure they would have liked to but what does that have to do with the merits of the film? Maybe some audience members were waiting to buy it on Blu-Ray, or catch it on streaming. Because the majority of folk are watching movies at home these days rather than driving out to the cinema.

TRANSFORMERS made way more money than SNOWDEN did, but I don’t feel that Stone is at fault for making a political movie about a whistleblower, rather than a CGI toy commercial of robots fighting. And SNOWDEN made nearly ten times as much as KILL THE MESSENGER did, so for a political movie it didn’t do too badly.

[Rob Clark]

5 hours ago, Anthony Thorne said:

Rob - who cares how much SNOWDEN made theatrically? First you tell us it didn’t get a cinema release. Now you concede that it actually did but it’s problematic that it didn’t sell more cinema tickets. 

It wasn't released in my area, and I live an hour from D.C. You're missing the point getting into all this minutiae...the point was, he blames doing JFK for ruining his career. I'm merely saying maybe it was poor script choice rather than Hollywood "blacklisting". He did well when he chose mainstream movies like Any Given Sunday, Wall Street 2, Alexander, and World Trade Center... which dont even get me started on. Other than JFK, his "political thrillers" have been duds monetarily. Maybe he's trying to recapture the magic with this documentary...

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, I had a brief moment with Oliver, and told him of my attendance at a screening for Emilio Estevez's film Bobby, which ended with the RFK assassination. I told him I'd asked Estevez afterward why he showed the fatal shot being fired from in front of RFK, when the coroner's report said it came from behind. I told him Estevez told me he knew all about the coroner's report, but didn't want his movie--which he considered a tribute to RFK and an elegy for the spirit of the 60's--to be pigeon-holed as a conspiracy movie. He specified, moreover, that he didn't want done to him what had been done to Oliver Stone. I then told Oliver his experience with JFK had become a cautionary tale for his fellow film-makers. He looked at me like "No sh*t" and said "I know" and quickly headed back into the main room.

I've enjoyed the majority of his films, and expect I'll enjoy a few more before he's done.

[Ron Bulman]

Maybe in the future he could do "The Irishman Exposed" or "Judy Baker: The Truth".

[David Andrews]

JFK numbers, from IMDB.com.  Does not include home video media.

Box Office

Budget:

$40,000,000 (estimated)

Opening Weekend USA:

$5,223,658, 22 December 1991

Gross USA:

$70,405,498

Cumulative Worldwide Gross:

$205,405,498

Edited December 13, 2019 by David Andrews

[Ron Bulman]

On 12/10/2019 at 10:08 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Could someone here please share their take on how they think Judyth Vary Baker has gotten so much media coverage mileage ( for years ) out of what the majority of JFK truth seekers in the research community deem as a totally non-credible, mostly made up story about her and Lee Oswald?

TV and radio show appearances, book deals, conferences, meetings with Oliver Stone ... it's a remarkable marketing achievement for someone who is constantly trashed by many credible JFK researchers as a self-promoting nut case.

What is the key to so-called nut case Baker's success in her fairly long term media coverage durability?

Does Judyth Vary Baker have some big bucks backer and maybe her own marketing team and a publicist?

 

 

 

 

 

Joe, I don't know if you read David Joseph's K&K article linked in his post above https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/poking-more-holes-in-judyth-baker.

In it he mentions Judy's claims that jobs were arranged for her and Lee at Riley Coffee.  By Who?  She was being financed by JFK's friend (?) Florida Senator George Smathers.  Why, where did the money to do so come from?  IF she really was in NO in the summer of 63 she disappeared for over 40 years.  

Was she brought back for multiple reasons?  To distract from JFK and Marina's change of heart in the 90's, the impact of the ARRB, in anticipation of the 50th?

A modern day Mockingbird?  Financed by, US? 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Anthony Thorne]

More strange commentary from Rob.

Quote

You're missing the point getting into all this minutiae...

Your point is very nebulous, but let's have a look.

Quote

the point was, he blames doing JFK for ruining his career

When has he ever said this? Googling OLIVER STONE JFK RUINED MY CAREER brings up nothing at all. Outside of his earlier low to middle budget work, Stone had directed just a couple of big studio pictures before JFK. He then went on to direct at least ten big studio pictures afterwards. 

More to the point, looking at the combined budgets, after Stone made JFK, the big studios proceeded to give him more than $550 million dollars in funding to continue to make movies. I'm not sure how many directors with a ruined career  - which typically means they can't make movies - have been given half a billion dollars afterwards to continue to make movies. Please post the link where Stone says that JFK - one of his most successful films ever at the box office, and a perennial seller afterwards for nearly 30 years on home video for Warner Bros - ruined his career. The number of directors in the history of the world who have had as successful a career as Stone did after he made JFK, is probably less than 1% of the number of directors in history who have ever made movies. That's some career ruination for you.

Quote

I'm merely saying maybe it was poor script choice rather than Hollywood "blacklisting".

Not to ask you to justify these bold claims, but where has Stone ever said he was 'blacklisted' from making movies? I can find a link of him on the Jimmy Dore show saying the big networks blacklisted his Putin interviews, but otherwise things seemed to have been better than normal for him.

Quote

Other than JFK, his "political thrillers" have been duds monetarily.

Do you care about the content of the movies, or about how much profit they made for studio stockholders? Once again, I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with how much NIXON and SNOWDEN made at the box office. The former had to suffer the sad fate of only receiving four Oscar nominations, and the latter only played globally and made back most of its budget. Some dud.

 

[Rob Clark]

3 hours ago, Anthony Thorne said:

When has he ever said this? Googling OLIVER STONE JFK RUINED MY CAREER brings up nothing at all. Outside of his earlier low to middle budget work, Stone had directed just a couple of big studio pictures before JFK. He then went on to direct at least ten big studio pictures afterwards.

He said it in Dallas at the banquet, I have the entire 25 minutes of audio if you'd like to hear it. You're making my point for me...I'm saying it was a ridiculous comment to make. Any movie that doesn't make money is considered a failure. Would you be happy giving Stone $40 million dollars to make a movie and to not only not make your investment money back, but not make any profit? Anyway, we're getting away from the point of the thread, which is him cavorting with the fraud Judyth Baker, giving her and her conference an air of credence and legitimacy. Hugging all over her, kissing her forehead... Why is this? Surely Jim D. has told him she's a fraud...and if that's not good enough he should have a sit down with Walt Brown, Chuck Ochelli, Carmine Savastano, Pamela Brown, Glenn Viklund, Steve Roe, myself and many others who have PROVEN beyond a doubt she's a fraud and a mythmaker.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Rob Clark
Apparently xxxx is a bad word...

[Joe Bauer]

On 12/12/2019 at 7:52 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Maybe in the future he could do "The Irishman Exposed" or "Judy Baker: The Truth".

He could do Dorothy Kilgallen's life story.

Kilgallen's exciting life of national and even international fame, courageous and daring ambition and achievement, highest level NYC theater and TV icon glamour and American woman historical precedent starting in her late teens and continuing right up until her most suspicious death at the early age of 52 ...BEGS to be told...even if her involvement with Jack Ruby and the darkest underbelly elements of the JFK assassination was not even included!

Load this cast up with the top stars. They would LOVE to be a part of this incredible, exciting, fun and glamorous joy ride adventure of Kilgallen's highest society life.

Her achievements are endless.

Her jumping in and helping Dr. Sam Sheppard win a new trial. Her around the world flight challenge. Her almost unheard of first daring exposes of the Mafia and the angry and insulting taunts of people like Frank Sinatra, who would always refer to her as "that chinless wonder."

Her daily participation in one of the most famous and popular long run early television shows ... "What's My Line." 

25 seasons! 860 to 1300 episodes! That show alone is a movie unto itself!

It would be a fought over event to be picked for that cast. Bryan Cranston would make a fine "What's My Line" host John Charles Daly.

It's incredible to me this super achieving, glamour personified American icon has not had a film made about her yet. What an inspirational success tale for all Americans, especially young girls.

What a story.

If I could have 10 to 20 minutes alone with Oliver Stone, I would beseech him to consider the historical importance and exciting precedent reality of such a film and it's obvious financial ticket sales potential. Even if it didn't go into DK's JFK investigation.

I am sure also that there are very wealthy individuals who could be easily convinced to finance such a venture.

My one apprehension guess though is that Mark Shaw might be a very tough person to deal with in any attempts to do the Kilgallen story on the big screen with challenges over copyrighted material he has already produced regards her life story. Could he work with Oliver Stone?

Edited December 14, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

Stone could not get domestic financing for Snowden.  They had to bring the money in from Germany.

He also could not get a major distributor.

It is difficult to estimate a movie's gross these days.  You always have to add in foreign, plus what they call ancillary rights.  That refers to money gained from things like DVD sales, online streaming, sales to networks and syndication for television.

If you can keep costs down, its pretty hard to lose money with all those markets.

Of course, if you get financed by Netflix, it does not matter.

Edited December 13, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

I have and have read Dr. Mary's Monkey.  I'm aware of Jim D.'s favorable review of it. But I don't see how Judy fits in to that tragedy.  

Wasn't Marina with him in NO the latter part of that spring and most of that summer until Ruth Paine picked her up on her way back from her east coast vacation.  I know Marina was pregnant at this time, but is Judy saying he screwed around with her while Marina was?  Mee and Leee is a leading title implying a relationship.  When did they have time to fool around with all the bus riding, research, and work at Riley Coffee? 

Having not read her book, does it give the sordid details?  Back of the bus?  Her apartment of no documentable account?  At Mary's monkey works or Ferries mice emporium?  Did they consummate their relationship?  Or was she just infatuated?

 

Lee must have loved Marina, he left her his ring, money, and one of his three wallets on that fateful morning.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Dennis Berube]

On 11/23/2019 at 4:54 PM, Paul Brancato said:

The video promotes the Giuliani Trump conspiracy theory. Seems that Jim DiEugenio has signed on too, as well as Glenn Greenwald.

Are people on this forum in general agreement with this? If so, it reminds me of the Lowenstein quote about being surprised so many smart people couldn't figure out the assassinations.

On 11/23/2019 at 4:54 PM, Paul Brancato said:

I think he’s losing his marbles a bit.

Wow.

On 11/24/2019 at 12:20 AM, Anthony Thorne said:

Maybe Oliver was just being polite and the camera failed to record his eye roll when he was walking off to his next appointment. Stranger things have happened.

Exactly, maybe Oliver isn't interested in furthering a rift that benefits no one other than JVB.

[Joe Bauer]

I know that immediate family testimony regards the truth telling credibility of important story or crime event participants is often unreliable and contradictory. Sometimes not.

Oswald's mother claimed her son Lee worked for the CIA!

Oswald's brother stated he thought Lee was guilty of the JFK assassination crime.

Marina has gone full circle from stating her husband must be guilty to at least being a patsy of some more involved group.

Jack Ruby's family defended him as a well meaning killer, simply overcome and compelled by his grief of Jackie Kennedy's loss. No nefarious outside influence ( members of the Mafia or the Dallas P.D. ) at all.

In Judyth Vary Baker's case, she has a sister ( Lynda?), and a friend ( Debbee? ) who from what I have read, back up at least a few aspects of JVB claim of an affair with someone while she was in N.O.

Same with Baker's son and daughter?

I do know that this sister has never once in all the decades since JVB has gone public with her story publicly stated that it is all a fraud. How about her children?

Yes, it could be simple familial loyalty, even over the truth, that this sister has not publicly refuted JVB story...at least the parts she has verified.

I do not know enough of Baker's sister background to say whether she has any credibility herself.  But, I would like to hear what she has to say in much more detail such as perhaps a serious 2 to 3 hour interview of what she remembers, feels and believes regarding her sister and her Oswald affair story.

I would want to know how together or not together this sister is and has been her whole life as well. It's a reasonable curiosity.

As reasonable as wanting to know about Robert Oswald and his feelings regards his brother Lee.

And if Marina had a sister, who wouldn't want to hear everything she had to share about Marina?

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Andrej Stancak]

It is possible to create a fictitious story in which own personal life events are intertwined with lives of famous people. Forrest Gump movie is an excellent example of creative writing of this sort. However, there is a problem if the author of a fictitious story presents it as something real. There are then only two possibilities: the author knows his/her story is a scam and wants to mislead the public, and this alternative would be what the psychic detectives do. Psychic detectives know dead well that all what they say is aimed to mislead people. The other alternative is that the author is convinced that the fictitious story was real and speaks the truth as it exists in his/her own mind. It is important to differentiate between these two types of deception to understand Mrs. Baker's motives for writing her story.

[S.T. Patrick]

Andrej, I have encountered The JVB on quite a few occasions. I admit that I've never read Me & Lee, as, honestly, I've never been that interested in that angle, and, like with The Inheritance, I find the myriad claims so fantastic as to be almost too fitting. Yet, I will admit that I've spent zero time researching The JVB's story. But I will also admit to liking Haslam and DMM. I'm glad you brought up the idea of "belief." Having encountered her more than a few times, and knowing many who've encountered her even more, I can tell you that I fully believe that SHE believes her own story.  When she talks about her story, I believe she's talking about it as something that, to her, seems true. Now, there could be quite a number of reasons this is true. I do not believe, at all, that she is talking about her story knowing it isn't true. Now, that doesn't mean I believe most of it. But I do believe its been created and then etched into her own believed autobio. So, as long as she believes it, we are never going to get that "gotcha" moment. We're also going to never see her "admit" anything that works against her story. 

Imagine what your reaction would be if you "KNOW" you went to Thomas Jefferson High School (I'll use fictional names here), but then a research community is telling you that you went to County High School. They are telling you there is no record of you being at TJSH, yet you believe you were and you have stories that you can tell, stories you remember vividly. Imagine what that causes in your mind. I think that's what goes on in her mind.

I can say this as long as I don't mention the researcher's name, but someone who knows her well also once explained to me that her difficult personality is caused by Aspergers. Look up the topic of lying and Aspergers/Autism. They manipulate greatly, but they have a hard time lying - some even find it impossible to lie or lie well. I would add here "...UNLESS they believe it." Unless there is something else happening mentally that causes them to believe what they've created. Now, I have no proof that she has Aspergers. Just hear-say from someone who knows her well but won't deal with her anymore. 

I don't know if this post ads anything to the mix of value, but I think there are more possibilities and layers (mental) than, say, the James Files story.