The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Jeff, Thanks for filling in some details. Feb 22th was the very day Yanukovych fled in a hurry. This couldn't be said to be a particularly  "bloody revolution" as apparently only 62 people died between the beginning of the protests in Nov. 2013 through Feb. 22nd. Though I'm sure intimidation was a factor. Still , he had the power of the state, he chose not to fight it

Sort of similar to Marcos and the Shah in that they all chose to leave probably to keep as much of their assets in tact, rather than face trial and prison.

Jeff: Yanukovych - whatever one may feel about him - was not ever “convicted” and no finding regarding his personal corruption, or lack thereof, was ever established or even really investigated,

I'm not sure that's a good defense Jeff. As you said yourself, "The Maidan protests were not initially about the EU association deal, they reflected a more generalized frustration with a corrupt political culture."  Besides he has quite a rap sheet, from Matt's Wiki, including being a thug when he was young and Including murder of protestors!

"A warrant for Yanukovych's arrest was issued on 24 February 2014 by the interim government, accusing him of mass murder of protesters.^[21] Acting Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov declared that Yanukovych has been placed on Ukraine's most wanted list and that a criminal case on mass killings of civilians has been opened against him.^[2"

He's certainly been investigated in some detail. regarding corruption, and there's no doubt his people want him.

Ukrtelekom case

"On 30 September 2014, the General Prosecutor of Ukraine opened a new case against Yanukovych for using 220 million hryvnia of state money to establish his own private communication company based on Ukrtelekom.^[256] The prosecutor's office also considered that Yanukovych was helped by the former government officials Mykola Azarov (prime minister), Yuriy Kolobov (finance minister), Anatoliy Markovsky (first deputy minister of finance), Hennadiy Reznikov (director of Derzhspetszviazok), and Dzenyk (Ukrtelekom board of directors).^[256]"

 

 

 

 

Kirk - the persons who stormed the Kiev legislature were not expressing dismay over Ukraine’s corrupt political culture, they were specifically acting to prevent a vote accepting the internationally mediated agreement to resolve the political crisis sparked by the Maidan protests. The mediated compromise would have moved up Ukraine’s next scheduled election to December 2014, which would have allowed a full debate over the actual terms of the EU Association Agreement, which were not presented to the negotiators until September 2013. That is when Yanukovych started to have doubts, because of language dealing with exclusivity (the EU would become Ukraine’s primary trading partner by law) and the requirement of severe austerity measures which would eliminate fuel subsidies and other social programs. That is why I became interested in this issue (in December 2013), when the Maidan started to shift from generalized corruption concerns towards support for the EU agreement, because I couldn’t fathom how a citizen-based protest movement could be advocating an austerity program - I wasn’t aware of that ever happening before. The coup not only removed the constitutionally elected government, it forestalled any public debate on the Association Agreement, which was signed by the new unelected government.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Jeff it was you who said:"The Maidan protests were not initially about the EU association deal, they reflected a more generalized frustration with a corrupt political culture."

I'm not equivocating  the earlier protests with  overthrow in February. But you're defending Yanukovych and yet you say there was a "general frustration with a corrupt political culture" but who was in charge?,  Who was President?

 

Jeff:The other charges directed at Yanukovych all followed the Feb coup, were filed by his political enemies

The same could be spun about Trump. It's hard to prosecute a President when he's in office. Ok you're assuming any charge against  Yanukovych is just BS. So any charge involving death to protestors falls in that category. But you asserted there's no investigation and yet there was a detailed investigation involving the Urktelelecom case. It obviously involve actions while he was in office and has other government officials involved as well.

I would say believe your own eyes and  look at the film of his estate and and I can show you much more film of the opulence of his 350 acre estate. Do you have an idea of how poor a country the Ukraine was? The average person made about 300 Euros a month! 

I know there's a lot of common people there who would disagree with you, but I guess you're privileged enough to tell them the extent that their grievances  are justified?

You also didn't answer to the fact that it was kind of a puny revolution that you would have thought any President with any sense of conviction could have probably resisted if he had one iota of national support. But of course, he fled.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Kirk Gallaway

[Benjamin Cole]

Ukraine is a murky topic, no? Maybe no white hats and black hats, but like Mexico, all wearing a uneven grey. 

Ukraine? Can we get clues from Wikipedia? 

BTW, here is how Wikipedia treats LHO:

Lee Harvey Oswald (October 18, 1939 – November 24, 1963) was a former U.S. Marine who assassinated United States president John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963.

Oswald was placed in juvenile detention at the age of 12 for truancy, during which time he was assessed by a psychiatrist as "emotionally disturbed", due to a lack of normal family life. After attending 22 schools in his youth, he quit repeatedly, and finally when he was 17, joined the Marines. Oswald was court-martialed twice while in the Marines, and jailed. "

---30---

The above is the opening paragraphs on LHO in Wikipedia.  

Many suspect Wikipedia is a CIA-influenced mouthpiece. 

Here is how Wikipedia treats the Ukraine Joe Biden-Hunter Biden laptop miasma: 

"The Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory is a series of unevidenced claims centered on the false allegation that while Joe Biden was vice president of the United States, he engaged in corrupt activities relating to the employment of his son Hunter Biden by the Ukrainian gas company Burisma.^[1]"

...

 In October 2020, during the last weeks of the presidential campaign, the New York Post published an article, with the involvement of Donald Trump's personal attorney Giuliani and former chief strategist Steve Bannon, about a found laptop allegedly belonging to Hunter Biden. The laptop contained an email, the authenticity of which was not verified, which showed what the New York Post characterized as a "meeting" between Joe Biden and a Burisma advisor in 2015, though that characterization was disputed by witnesses.^[5] The article's veracity was strongly questioned by most mainstream media outlets, analysts and intelligence officials, due to the questionable provenance of the laptop and its contents, and the suspicion it may have been part of a disinformation campaign.^[8][9][10] It was later confirmed that at least some of the laptop materials were genuine and Hunter Biden himself said that the laptop could be his.^[11]"

---30---

The whole thing about Veep Joe Biden holding back $1 billion in US aid unless the prosecution of Burisma was halted (on which board Hunter Biden sat) smells fishy. 

Well, the Donks, the national security state, and Wikipedia have one version on Ukraine. But of course, we have the Donk-national security state-Wikipedia version on LHO too. 

You see how Donk-centric Rolling Stone treated JFK Revisited? 

The upshot? 

Do not hold sacred narratives you have read in the M$M or in Wikipedia. 

 

 

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Jeff it was you who said:"The Maidan protests were not initially about the EU association deal, they reflected a more generalized frustration with a corrupt political culture."

I'm not equivocating  the earlier protests with  overthrow in February. But you're defending Yanukovych and yet you say there was a "general frustration with a corrupt political culture" but who was in charge?,  Who was President?

 

Jeff:The other charges directed at Yanukovych all followed the Feb coup, were filed by his political enemies

The same could be spun about Trump. It's hard to prosecute a President when he's in office. Ok you're assuming any charge against  Yanukovych is just BS. So any charge involving death to protestors falls in that category. But you asserted there's no investigation and yet there was a detailed investigation involving the Urktelelecom case. It obviously involve actions while he was in office and has other government officials involved as well.

I would say believe your own eyes and  look at the film of his estate and and I can show you much more film of the opulence of his 350 acre estate. Do you have an idea of how poor a country the Ukraine was? The average person made about 300 Euros a month! 

I know there's a lot of common people there who would disagree with you, but I guess you're privileged enough to tell them the extent that their grievances  are justified?

You also didn't answer to the fact that it was kind of a puny revolution that you would have thought any President with any sense of conviction could have probably resisted if he had one iota of national support. But of course, he fled.

Kirk - establishing the factual record is not the same as “defending” a corrupt politician. And again, constitutional democracies have established procedures for the lawful removal of elected officials - procedures which do not include angry mobs storming legislatures and declaring new governments.

The record shows that Yanukovych’s  corruption problems did not provide the agency for the coup. It was the mediated agreement made the day before:

New York Times February 21, 2014:

“A deal aimed at ending a lethal spiral of violence in Ukraine began to show serious strains late Friday just hours after it had been signed, with angry protesters shouting down opposition members of Parliament who negotiated the accord and a militant leader threatening armed attacks if President Viktor F. Yanukovych did not step down by morning…

Dmytro Yarosh, the leader of Right Sector, a coalition of hard-line nationalist groups, reacted defiantly to news of the settlement, drawing more cheers from the crowd. “The agreements that were reached do not correspond to our aspirations,” he said…

New York Times February 22, 2014:

“Gone on Saturday, along with President Viktor F. Yanukovych, who had fled to eastern Ukraine, was any trace of a Friday peace deal that had sought to freeze the country’s tumult by trimming the powers of the president while allowing him to stay in office until the end of the year…

With protesters now in control of the presidential compound in Mezhgorye and the government district of Kiev, the (mediated agreement) lies in ruins…”

 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Ukraine is a murky topic, no? Maybe no white hats and black hats, but like Mexico, all wearing a uneven grey. 

Ukraine? Can we get clues from Wikipedia? 

BTW, here is how Wikipedia treats LHO:

Lee Harvey Oswald (October 18, 1939 – November 24, 1963) was a former U.S. Marine who assassinated United States president John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963.

Oswald was placed in juvenile detention at the age of 12 for truancy, during which time he was assessed by a psychiatrist as "emotionally disturbed", due to a lack of normal family life. After attending 22 schools in his youth, he quit repeatedly, and finally when he was 17, joined the Marines. Oswald was court-martialed twice while in the Marines, and jailed. "

---30---

The above is the opening paragraphs on LHO in Wikipedia.  

Many suspect Wikipedia is a CIA-influenced mouthpiece. 

Here is how Wikipedia treats the Ukraine Joe Biden-Hunter Biden laptop miasma: 

"The Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory is a series of unevidenced claims centered on the false allegation that while Joe Biden was vice president of the United States, he engaged in corrupt activities relating to the employment of his son Hunter Biden by the Ukrainian gas company Burisma.^[1]"

...

 In October 2020, during the last weeks of the presidential campaign, the New York Post published an article, with the involvement of Donald Trump's personal attorney Giuliani and former chief strategist Steve Bannon, about a found laptop allegedly belonging to Hunter Biden. The laptop contained an email, the authenticity of which was not verified, which showed what the New York Post characterized as a "meeting" between Joe Biden and a Burisma advisor in 2015, though that characterization was disputed by witnesses.^[5] The article's veracity was strongly questioned by most mainstream media outlets, analysts and intelligence officials, due to the questionable provenance of the laptop and its contents, and the suspicion it may have been part of a disinformation campaign.^[8][9][10] It was later confirmed that at least some of the laptop materials were genuine and Hunter Biden himself said that the laptop could be his.^[11]"

---30---

The whole thing about Veep Joe Biden holding back $1 billion in US aid unless the prosecution of Burisma was halted (on which board Hunter Biden sat) smells fishy. 

Well, the Donks, the national security state, and Wikipedia have one version on Ukraine. But of course, we have the Donk-national security state-Wikipedia version on LHO too. 

You see how Donk-centric Rolling Stone treated JFK Revisited? 

The upshot? 

Do not hold sacred narratives you have read in the M$M or in Wikipedia. 

 

 

Ben, you keep referring to the donks in a derogatory manner.  JFK was a Donk.  If your impartial why do you never refer to his opponents in such fashion?  Makes me wonder if you work for the coches.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Ben, you keep referring to the donks in a derogatory manner.  JFK was a Donk.  If your impartial why do you never refer to his opponents in such fashion?  Makes me wonder if you work for the coches.

Ron-

Yes, I refer to the Donks in a negative manner as (IMHO) they have been totally immersed in the national security state, and beholden to their globalist donor class---a betrayal of their roots. Add on the Donk compulsions to divisive and offensive ID-politics....

But I have said many times the 'Phants are no better, through there may be some scant hope for the populist wing of the GOP. 

But ask yourself: Why is the donk-centric Rolling Stone not even reviewing, but merely ridiculing JFK Revisited? 

I have said many times JFK was the last great president; Bush jr. the worst of all time IMHO).

But Eisenhower was very underrated...Remember his Farewell Speech, the zenith of clarity and content. 

As I say, shed your party affiliations, your red-blue hats, your culture wars. 

There is a purple party, and an allied media. 

I am less worried about a bunch of lulus in the Capitol on 1/6, than the vast and global apparatus of the national security state....

[Matt Allison]

Michael Flynn's brother is Commanding General of the Pacific Army and may have played a key role in the coup plot by delaying a response to the Capitol riot:

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/06/jan-6-generals-lied-ex-dc-guard-official-523777

[Sean Coleman]

……what’s a donk?

Interesting verbal swordplay btw

[W. Niederhut]

       This is a must see 60 Minutes story about how Trump and Putin lied in 2017 about Russian hacking of our 2016 U.S. election, and how a decorated U.S. military veteran spent four years in prison for exposing Trump's lies to the American people about the Russian hack job.

       It's especially galling to consider that Reality Winner spent four years in prison for true patriotism, while Trump's Russiagate accomplices-- Michael Flynn, Manafort, and Roger Stone-- were pardoned for betraying the country.

 

[Chris Davidson]

4 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Michael Flynn's brother is Commanding General of the Pacific Army and may have played a key role in the coup plot by delaying a response to the Capitol riot:

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/06/jan-6-generals-lied-ex-dc-guard-official-523777

Birds sharing common feathers flock together.

And/or, rotten apples produce bad seeds.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Ben, you keep referring to the donks in a derogatory manner.  JFK was a Donk.  If your impartial why do you never refer to his opponents in such fashion?  Makes me wonder if you work for the coches.

Hey Ron,

I know this is at Ben, however, I wonder who of the American national's here can claim to be impartial, without bias? It's very difficult isn't it? With a lifetime of conditioning sharping our thoughts and opinions. Most of us inherit so much of our outlook from our parents, of course there are exceptions to the rule. It is true that JFK was a Democrat but, a good question might be; how would his policies be viewed today, vs the present Dems or Republicans? Would he want to be associated with either party? What would he agree with that Biden or Trump have done? I think he'd be turning in his grave looking at the era after he passed and despairing as it gets worse. 

I also think a comparison between the politics of JFK, RFK & EMK would be interesting too. Was JFK restraining his politics because he knew that America wasn't ready for it, wouldn't accept it without it being eased in incrementally. Bobby seems like he wanted to take things much further, he was more raw. 

I am an outsider, we have our own biases in my own country of birth, which I have done my best to shake, becoming increasingly liberal as I age. 

Cheers,

Chris

[Steve Thomas]

https://twitter.com/EPCSheriff/status/1466845021995421698?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

 

EPCSheriff

@EPCSheriff

Guess who came in to receive his Concealed Handgun Permit today? Did you know the El Paso County Sheriff's Office has issued 49,750 Concealed Handgun Permits with another 2,560 awaiting to be issued? For more info please visit our website: https://epcsheriffsoffice.com/services/conce

 

 

Next time you want to take your grandkids to the mall...

Steve Thomas

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Steve Thomas

[W. Niederhut]

Steve,

    If I had to slide down chimneys on Christmas Ever in arch-conservative, gun-toting El Paso County, Colorado, I'd probably get a concealed carry gun permit too.   Landing on roofs with reindeer must be dangerous down there. 🤥

    As for the 60 Minutes story about Reality Winner last night, I should mention that one of the most disturbing revelations was the part about the Trump administration's NSA failing to inform the FEC in 2017 about their intelligence on Russian hacking. 

    If I heard the 60 Minutes story correctly, the FEC didn't even know about the Russian hacking of voter data bases in the U.S. until Reality Winner leaked the NSA intel to The Intercept!  Winner's leak may have helped secure our 2018 mid-term elections from Russian hackers.

    Regardless, the Trump administration threw the book at Reality Winner for exposing Trump's lies about the 2016 Russian hack.

    James Risen wrote about this issue at The Intercept in February of 2019.

The Leaks That Trump’s Justice Department Prosecutes Are Mostly About Trump, His Cronies, and Russia

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/27/trump-russia-leaks-mueller-investigation/

Edited December 6, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

……what’s a donk?

Interesting verbal swordplay btw

Well, Donks and 'Phants are how I refer to the purple party, that is the Democrats and Republicans. 

 

[Matt Allison]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/05/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-troops.html?referringSource=articleShare