Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Paul Brancato]

I don’t know any Putin apologists. It’s a way to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I don’t know any Putin apologists. It’s a way to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. 

Paul,

     Has Jeff Carter ever criticized anything Putin has done?

     How about Trump?  Tucker Carlson?

     When Putin invaded Ukraine last year, Donald Trump even declared that Putin was a genius.

     

[Bob Ness]

52 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I don’t know any Putin apologists. It’s a way to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. 

The problem is Paul it's pretty black and white to begin with. The aforementioned apologists have yet to condemn the actions, even now. The thrust of the arguments is the West has created the problem when in fact autocrats from Europe have been doing this sort of thing with all of the same methods for centuries.

I for one don't have any illusions about US geopolitical scoundrels of every stripe (State, CIA, Pentagon, Industry etc) have encouraged, or even provoked at times, conflicts in regions of the world we have no right or justification to be engaged with.

In the case of Europe, where we have been sucked into enormous world-wide conflicts that have resulted in millions upon millions of deaths, a larger amount of casualties and untold amount of displacement of innocent people, Europe (I include Russia/USSR in that group) has imposed their problems on us. My family has blood on the ground defending the sensibilities of some idiot King or the other and their interminable border disputes which can be counted in millenia. That's a fact.

As I asked many posts ago can anyone name one member country of NATO that has had to endure extended conflict within their borders since its formation? No, they can't. That's why, as Kirk has pointed out from on the ground, peripheral countries, almost without exception, want and prefer inclusion into NATO and the protective umbrella. Those people have uniformly rejected Russian direction (remember the fall?) for good reason and Putin or anyone else's carping about NATO has more to do with an example of democratic countries on his border rather than any military threat. That's bad for business and his future.

Putin is probably the world's first trillionaire and that wasn't accomplished because he was an innovator. Unless you count the use of Ricin, Novichuk and Polonium as "inventive". Acid in your face? He's your man. Learn to fly from buildings? He's got that cornered.

That's the guy they're defending and those claims aren't controversial. They're facts. Like black and white.

[John Cotter]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I wasn't calling you intellectually dishonest, Jim. I was referring to to the obvious Putin apologists.

With regard to your statement about Putin and Zelensky negotiating, I believe someone else pointed out the unlikelihood that Putin was negotiating in good faith.

And as was also pointed out, "Surrender your land or we'll kill all your citizens" isn't much of a deal.

Who are the "obvious Putin apologists" who you claim are intellectually dishonest, Matt?

Please name them.

[James DiEugenio]

This was what the talks in Istanbul were negotiating according to the Financial Times, which favors Ukraine.

Russian and Ukrainian negotiators have placed most other issues on the back burner while trying to thrash out a deal on guarantees for Kyiv’s security if it declares neutrality and abandons its drive to join Nato.

Does not sound like surrender your territory and go home to me.

But that is not really the issue, the issues was Boris Johnson did not like it.  And Zelensky acceded to Boris's wishes.

[Matthew Koch]

The thread is about the connection between Ukraine and Operation Gladio Fascists, the Azov Battalion and the arrests in Italy and the terrorsits events agains Dugans Daughter and Crimea bridge show that, that kind of stuff is still going on. 
I don't think the thread should be deleted because emotional terrorists can't control themselves to not adhom and have civil discourse. Deleting the thread means that Matt's behavior is acceptable. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Matthew Koch

[Ron Bulman]

Like I said . . .  Lori, good job, but.

[Matthew Koch]

11 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Never gets old. 🙂 

Those are the same symbols that the Ukrainians are wearing on their kits along with the Black Sun.. But I'm sure they're just hailing cabs when we see pictures of the Sieg Heil hand in the air.

I'm really enjoying the thread now that the Russiaphobes are showing that they are only driven by programed MSM hatred of Putin for what they think he did, in rigging the election for Trump. Remember in the Trump thread when Matt was cheering on the terrorist action of blowing up the bridge in Crimea, I do! Matt cheered on it happening on Putin's Birthday and asked how he liked his birthday cake, and didn't seem to care about the innocent people killed or effected in that case because they were Russian. IMO What we are also seeing is extreme cognitive dissonance which I assume is because Putin is using similar rhetoric to their's about being "Antifa". So what it seems like , since in their minds Trump is a Fascist Dictator and his supporters are (N)azis. Putin can't be Antifa, because he is a Stalinist Communist who was born the year before Stalin died, and who is only killing Ukrainians because he is as evil as Hitler! That's about all I get from them and those who oppose them are apologist for Putin. Instead of understanding that Ukraine's government was overthrown to put an unfriendly NATO EU puppets in place. Who violated the prior agreements on Donbas and was looking to join NATO and host missiles, so they are solving the problem and are getting rid of the corrupt Zelensky regime.  

It is what it is at this point now. Zelensky could have negotiated to de militarize but since he's unwilling because NATO and Joe Biden are running the show. Putin is de militarizing his military for him. But, I guess that's what you get when you vote in a comedian instead of a Statesmen... 

 

[Ron Bulman]

 

[Matthew Koch]

16 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

War is really good for making lots of Money

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

Can I make a request to the moderators?

This thread has devolved into the usual  custard pies and whipped cream farragoes between those who think Putin is worse than Stalin, and those who think the Neocons are worse than Nixon.  There is no in between here since the issue has become polarized by the MSM.

Secondly it has nothing to do now with the JFK case.  Not one iota.

So I would suggest it be removed from the JFK debate section.

Thanks for your consideration.

 

A couple of points that I would make are;

- It reveals more context of operations of that era and Dulles & co, who many of us think is connected to the JFKA. If the moderators remove this thread, then lots of other threads need to go too, if held to the same standard of scrutiny. That 100% includes the 58 years thread, which some here couldn’t survive without. It even includes happy new year threads, music threads and whatever else that people enjoy which doesn’t specifically apply to the JFKA and solving the case. 
 

- If we do allow people to t-r-o-l-l  a thread repeatedly, turning any topic that they don’t like into a state of disrepute, with a view to having it taken down or censored (which some are calling for), then we set a very bad precedent. 
 

This isn’t the case in all threads and it doesn’t apply to all people debating this thread but, if an analysis is taken from this thread, most of the attacking, ad hominem, mis-characterising, and attempts to censor are coming from one side almost exclusively. This could be a much better discussion if emotions and egos were better kept in check and more restraint was exercised.

 

[Matt Allison]

I wonder what this person thinks about the issue. Maybe we can flag her down.

Anyone know what time zone she lives in?

 

 

[Matthew Koch]

Here's a great example of leftist presuppositions and the double think associated with it. Very similar to what we are seeing in the thread, everything bad is done by right.

How much are we going to end up wasting on this failure? I'd rather have spent it on Infrusture and better education for miniorities.. in America, personally. That tax payer money has been stolen and instead used for war like Eishenhower talked about in his Cross of Iron speech.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Matthew Koch

[W. Niederhut]

15 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can I make a request to the moderators?

This thread has devolved into the usual  custard pies and whipped cream farragoes between those who think Putin is worse than Stalin, and those who think the Neocons are worse than Nixon.  There is no in between here since the issue has become polarized by the MSM.

Secondly it has nothing to do now with the JFK case.  Not one iota.

So I would suggest it be removed from the JFK debate section.

Thanks for your consideration.

Jim,

     Your custard pie metaphor is a good one, but, just to clarify, I don't believe that "Putin is worse than Stalin."

     I do believe that Putin is an erstwhile Stalinist, like his father-- and a graduate of the Yuri Andropov Institute.  

     (You probably know that Putin's grandfather, Spiridon Putin, was Stalin's personal chef.)

     Vlad ascended to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel during his 16-year KGB career in Dresden.

     Catherine Belton argues that the KGB had anticipated the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, and had conspired to re-establish the Soviet police state in the guise of a nascent democracy.*  Putin was their man.

     The pie-throwing contest on this thread seems to be based on two conflicting hypotheses;

1)  The Jeff Carter/Mearsheimer Hypothesis-- that NATO, the Neocons, and the N-a-z-i-e-s are largely to blame for Putin's decision to invade and annex Ukraine, and

2)  The Kotkin/Belton Neo-Soviet Imperialist Hypothesis-- that Putin's invasion of Ukraine (and 2014 annexation of the Crimea) is part of a longstanding Putin/KGB agenda of re-establishing the former Soviet empire.

     Of course, the two theories are not mutually exclusive.  

     Aspects of both are probably accurate, but my own opinion is that Putin's neo-Soviet imperialist agenda is primarily responsibility for Putin's decision to invade and annex Ukraine.

    To Jeff Carter's counter argument, my response is...

 

"Jeff, you ignorant slut!"  🤥

 

 

    * Putin's People: Belton, Catherine: 9781250787323: Amazon.com: Books

Edited January 25, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[James DiEugenio]

I got a second and third for my suggestion.

Plus William cleverly put up a gif of the Three Stooges pie fight.

I agree that Lori's original comments did relate to the JFK case.

But that is long gone.  What the last few pages of this thread have to do with JFK's murder escape me.

So, I repeat my request.